Operation Sea Lion: The Invasion Itself

[Saphroneth]

It was Moe Berg who was dispatched on the mission:

Ah, that's the one.
And yes, when the Bomb relies on Jewish Physics as opposed to Deutsche Physik, they're not gonna get it.

 

[Alan]

Ah, that's the one.
And yes, when the Bomb relies on Jewish Physics as opposed to Deutsche Physik, they're not gonna get it.

In point of fact, Germans have predominated in modern theoretical physics, and non-Jewish ones at that. Also, much of Einstein's work was derivative of that of the Dutchman Lorentz. Lisa Meitner did not participate in the nuclear fission experiments of Otto Hahn and her speculation that it was nuclear fission merely confirmed what Otto Hahn suspected anyway.

While its a fact that the American and British nuclear projects would have been dead in the water without the contribution of emigre Hungarian and German scientists, the same could not be said of the German nuclear project. Einstein himself was fully aware of this when he warned the American government that there was a danger of the Germans developing the A bomb.

 

[cracou]

You need uranium for the weapon. OTL the yellow cake come from Belgium's Congo. They don't have access to it. Game over.

 

[Garrison]

In point of fact, Germans have predominated in modern theoretical physics, and non-Jewish ones at that. Also, much of Einstein's work was derivative of that of the Dutchman Lorentz. Lisa Meitner did not participate in the nuclear fission experiments of Otto Hahn and her speculation that it was nuclear fission merely confirmed what Otto Hahn suspected anyway.

While its a fact that the American and British nuclear projects would have been dead in the water without the contribution of emigre Hungarian and German scientists, the same could not be said of the German nuclear project. Einstein himself was fully aware of this when he warned the American government that there was a danger of the Germans developing the A bomb.

So you are then I take it on the 'deliberate sabotage' side of the Heisenberg argument? Germany may have had many good scientists left despite what you so charmingly refer to as 'emigres' but it appears that the best of them didn't want the Nazi's to have the bomb; unless you know, they just screwed up?

 

[Garrison]

You need uranium for the weapon. OTL the yellow cake come from Belgium's Congo. They don't have access to it. Game over.

Not to mention that in another mathematical blunder German scientists concluded that Graphite wouldn't work as a moderator; thus their obsession with heavy water and the attendant problems that created.

 

[Major Major]

You need uranium for the weapon. OTL the yellow cake come from Belgium's Congo. They don't have access to it. Game over.

Joachimsthal (Jachymov) in Bohemia had uranium mining, too. Marie Curie discovered radium in pitchblende from Joachimsthal. So they had uranium.

And they were interested in other research. The German's top secret agent IVAN was given a request to find out all he could about uranium research in the United States. Since this was Dusko Popov, the British and Americans perforce knew about it anyhow. But then, J. Edgar Hoover didn't like Popov's womanizing, so he didn't tell anyone else that Popov had been asked to provide information on Pearl Harbor, because the Japanese Naval Attache had been to Taranto after the British carrier raid there . . .

 

[cracou]

I wrote Yellow cake, not uranium for a good reason: they had "some" uranium but not the industrial quantity that you needed.

 

[TFSmith121]

Yes, yes they would...because you can't spell "sturmschwimmer"

Would they tread water for 72 hours first?

Yes, yes they would...just imagine a Hugo Boss-designed wetsuit.

And because you can't spell "sturmschwimmer" without two s's...

Can't someone take this poor thread out back and put it down? Think of the children...

Best,

 

[tigercat]

I think that was actually pretty much what the Brits expected the Germans to do, which is why the Brits focused their anti invasion preparations on the East coast as well as the South. Only problem is, they didn't have many liners (most of which were either American, British, or had sailed off to American or British ports when their respective countries got in trouble).

I thought they lots of liners or was that WW 1 and pre depression. I know they had the strength through joy ships but presumably that wouldn't have been enough. Didn't they spend most of the war as accommodation ships. Then get sunk by the Russian s right at end of war.

 

[CalBear]

In the case of a Mediterranean strategy, the Germans would have directed their main effort through Turkey, not Egypt. The British Army proved incapable of matching German or Japanese forces until the end of 1942 in the case of the Germans, and the Imphal-Kohima operation in the case of the Japanese.

As far as Heisenberg is concerned, his initial interest in the bomb project was no more than that of a dilettante, and any estimates he made would have been on this basis. Army funding on the atomic bomb project ceased in early 1942, when it was deemed that it would yield no immediate results, and was nothing to do with any miscalculation. You compare this with the vast resources pumped into the Manhattan project. Your argument seems to be based on the premise that the likes of Otto Hahn and Heisenberg were too stupid to develop the Atomic bomb project. By 1945, Heisenberg had a very good understanding of what was needed.

Wait...

Through Turkey? So the Reich invades TURKEY? The last time that went well for the invader was 1453.

Your position on the Reich Bomb Project is vastly different from every source I have read on the subject. Can you provide a few references?

I'm especially interested in anything regarding the Reich actually generating either a sustained controlled chain reaction or the centrifugal process, since, without these, there can literally not be a bomb project.

 

[Saphroneth]

I thought they lots of liners or was that WW 1 and pre depression. I know they had the strength through joy ships but presumably that wouldn't have been enough. Didn't they spend most of the war as accommodation ships. Then get sunk by the Russian s right at end of war.

Since they appear to have had eight such ships as hospital ships, and assuming that they had as many again doing other roles and that they were the size of the SS Bremen (actually a Blue Riband holder and probably the biggest), they'd have a capacity of a little under forty thousand.
It's not much to invade a country, basically. (At least, not much to invade a mobilized country. Norway wasn't.)

 

[alfredtuomi]

Yes, yes they would...just imagine a Hugo Boss-designed wetsuit.

And because you can't spell "sturmschwimmer" without two s's...

Can't someone take this poor thread out back and put it down? Think of the children...

Best,

it s more like a cat.....but way more than 9 lives......

 

[Major Major]

I wrote Yellow cake, not uranium for a good reason: they had "some" uranium but not the industrial quantity that you needed.

They didn't seem to think so:

http://southcarolina1670.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/remembering-the-notorious-uranium-gulag/

 

[cracou]

Read your link: production stoped during the war. BTW this one was mainly used at the time for Radium and not Uranium.

The Schneeberg-Schlema-Alberoda mine was far more interesting but it has been discovered only in 46

 

[Garrison]

Watching the World Cup semi-final and it's now crystal clear how Germany can win WWII; challenge England to a winner takes all football match...

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Watching the World Cup semi-final and it's now crystal clear how Germany can win WWII; challenge England to a winner takes all football match...

No need even for the Germans to score - everyone knows the rules - two teams play for 90 minutes then the Germans win on penalties

 

[Glenn239]

It could be argued in terms of grand stratagey that it might have been better for GB to have encoureged the Nazia to attempt the Seamammal. Though the Imperial forces would have taken serous damage in terms of Aircraft and ships in particular. The resulting disasterous defeat and failure to subdue the British would bring the string of stunning victories by the German war machine to a shuddering halt at the end of 1940. Might that have had major consequences for operation Barborossa and the futer conduct of the war if the Luftwaffe had been guuted completely (trying to protect the evacuation of the mammal) and likewise the German Navy. What would and could have been the most losses the allies could have inflicted?

Pretty sure the run of easy German victories was about at an end with the fall of France.

Tough to say on losses overall, but generally speaking, it's not a sound security policy to ever want the enemy to undertake the one and only action that if they somehow get lucky, you are conquered.

 

[Glenn239]

Hmm, for once I think I agree with Hitler, who seems to have thought that Sealion was not worth the risk given he cancelled it.

He thought Russia was the easier mark.

 

[Glenn239]

Which you keep saying without remotely supporting. Besides which you cannot take the situation in 1940 and simply wave away the political motivations that influenced strategy. As others have pointed out if Germany had made rational decisions Sealion would never have been an issue.

That Barbarossa was riskier than Sealion is a fact, not an intangible. If Sealion failed, the consequences were not serious. If Barbarossa failed, Germany was conquered.

 

[Glenn239]

I see you subscribe to the IJN school of grand strategy - to paraphrase a great detective " Once you eliminate the unthinkable, whatever remains, no matter how unfeasible, must be the best strategy"

We have a large number of posters doing backflips to avoid admitting the elephant in the room; for Germany in 1940, chances to win WW2 did not exactly grow on trees. Sealion was the one and only shot at victory over Great Britain, so, to have turned down the one and only chance was about as bright for Germany as it was for Hannibal not to take a shot at Rome after Cannae.