Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)

The barges and tugs will be quite vulnerable to even .50 machine gun fire, let alone 20mm or 40mm fire. The armed trawlers, MGBs, and MTBs can deal with the barges and tugs while the larger warships deal with the "real" KM escorts. Heavy machine gun and 20/40mm rounds will bunch through the wooden or metal hulls of the barges like they were not there, causing an ugly slaughter inside (fish in a barrel) and making enough holes that any bailing or pumps will be overwhelmed - even if they tows or self propelled barges turn around and get lucky it would take them hours to get back to the continent to beach themselves and they will sink before then. Similarly if they press on and do beach somewhere in England, with a demoralized cargo of shocked, dead, wounded soldiers then what? Makeshift mounts or bolted on 88s cannot manage to shoot at MGBs and MTBs even at 15-20 knots, let alone high speed. There is no fire control, these weapons are not designed to be able to be swung around rapidly (unlike warship mounts), and antitank gunners, even the most expert, are used to shooting at vehicles moving at maybe 10-12 mph and not bobbing up and down as well as maneuvering, oh and their gun is not moving in three dimensions while they are trying to do this.

While the Germans are not Ubermenschen, they are not idiots. The river barges, either towed or self propelled, are designed for their loads to be in the hold, putting guns (which tend to be heavy, on the decks is not going to do good things for the CG and stability. Even as is these craft will roll like crazy in the Channel, add weight up high, rough seas (or major wakes from enemy ships racing through the formation) and they are quite likely to turn turtle absent any battle damage. Physics trumps supermen.

You may want to rethink your comments?

PT boats in the Pacific found that their weapons were not terribly effective against Japanese Barges. Torps run too deep and were waste full. .50 cal was not heavy enough to destroy barges. Wooden barges are designed to carry weight, and floated still when full of holes. Later in the war, many added 37mm cannon etc to improve their efforts.

Similarly RN MGBs were fitted with single 2 pdrs and automatic 6 pdrs later in the war to combat KM E-boats, as 20mm was not enough.

Just a side question?

How many RN ships had 20mm at this time?

“The Royal Navy managed to smuggle out the necessary drawings and documents from Zürich. The production of the first British-made Oerlikon guns started in Ruislip, London, at the end of 1940. The first guns were delivered to the Royal Navy in March or April, 1941.”

How many small ships had 40mm 2 pdr mounts. HMS Black Swan didn’t in 1940. It was limited to destroyers and above at this stage?

“Quad mountings were introduced for smaller ships in 1935-36 and was first successfully tried on the destroyer HMS Crusader (H60). ........ Destroyers starting with the "Tribal" class and up to some of the "S" war emergency class destroyers had a single quad mount installed amidships. Some earlier destroyers had a single quad mount fitted during the war.”

Tracer...?

“The Low Velocity type was first introduced in 1914. The High Velocity type was introduced in 1938. HE tracer does not appear to have been issued prior to 1942.”

MGB...?

Correct me if wrong, but at this time only Fairmile A, was in service. These were fitted with old 3 pdr hotchkiss guns, 2 x .303” (Lewis guns?) and no FCS.

“The first Fairmile B motor launch was completed in September 1940, with a further 38 from the first two production batches entering service before the end of the year.[1]
 
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But paragraph 3 (a) clearly references “anti-aircraft artillery”, so 88s were definitely part of the plan.
Only if "anti-aircraft artillery" = 88s.
But 88s are a subset of "anti-aircraft artillery"
There fore paragraph 3 (a) does not prove that "88s were definitely part of the plan".
I'm not saying they weren't or that they were. All I'm saying is that the above logic is faulty.
 
The barges the Japanese used in the Pacific were much sturdier than the river barges (powered or unpowered) that would be used for SEALION. Most of the river barges were either wood hulled or thin steel, both of which a .50 round will penetrate quite nicely thank you. The standard Type A barge used for interisland transport had a diesel engine, a range of 100nm at 7.5kts, they were 14.3m long and a beam of 3m. The powered barges used in 1940 were roughly 38m long and 5m wide, older ones were wood newer ones steel - they were quite slow especially when loaded, and to make them "seaworthy" the Germans welded two of them side to side...
 
So here are pictures of a Flak 36 and a Flak 18, as near as I can tell the primary models of the 88 that would have been in service in 1940. Would love to see the Germans try haul a significant number of these plus the vehicles required to tow them, plus their crews, and their rather heavy ammunition on barges with everything else they need for the invasion. Oh yeah, what could possibly go wrong?



Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-783-0109-19%2C_Nordafrika%2C_Zugkraftwagen_mit_Flak_%28cropped%29.jpg
 
Good lord..he's been doing this for 13 years o_O

Yes, and on several different forums where he has had his fantasies rubbished by published authors, recognized naval historians, and very experienced military veterans. Give him credit for nuts and bolts numerical data and OOBs, but no belief should be given to his outlandish tactical and strategic theories.
 
The barges the Japanese used in the Pacific were much sturdier than the river barges (powered or unpowered) that would be used for SEALION. Most of the river barges were either wood hulled or thin steel, both of which a .50 round will penetrate quite nicely thank you. The standard Type A barge used for interisland transport had a diesel engine, a range of 100nm at 7.5kts, they were 14.3m long and a beam of 3m. The powered barges used in 1940 were roughly 38m long and 5m wide, older ones were wood newer ones steel - they were quite slow especially when loaded, and to make them "seaworthy" the Germans welded two of them side to side...

Much sturdier is open to debate!

Characteristics of the Large Landing Barge (Daihatsu)

While a number of types of barges are used by the Japanese army, it is thought that the enemy will concentrate on the large landing barge, see accompanying illustrations. The usual type of barge is about 49 feet long and 12 feet wide, with the conventional pointed bow, although some of the same size and general construction have a double bow to support a landing-ramp.

Usually, the construction is reported to be of wood--teak, Oregon pine, or whatever local varieties are available. Apparently steel or composite construction -- wood on a steel frame -- is also used. Plating of 5/8-inch steel may be applied to protect personnel. At any rate, the boats are simple, sturdy, easily built, seaworthy and cheap. From information received, it is inferred that the cargo capacity is about eleven short tons. They would carry 10 horses, or a light tank, and an automobile, or 70 fully equipped men exclusive of a barge crew of seven, which presumably, includes some sort of a machine-gun, or AA-gun crew. A 60-horsepower gasoline or heavy-fuel motor installed aft gives a speed of 8 knots, equivalent to about 9 miles per hour. Although not decked over, such barges are capable of covering considerable distances of open sea and present a logistic factor that must be taken into consideration.”


Even allowing for the British .50 not being the same as the US .50, most fire is delivered flat, above the waterline and penetrate above cargos; human or other.

Penetrate nicely, sink as said above, not easily
 
For those who live in that area, at what point does the weather make this a no go. I realize weather in that area can be bad anytime of the year and it played a huge role in timing of D-Day and that was in June (thank you Group Captain Stagg). When do things reach a point where you can't reliably count on even 48 hours of good weather?

I did some research on this back in post 87

I think Sept is the absolute latest but even then it was a bit sketchy
 
Much sturdier is open to debate!

Characteristics of the Large Landing Barge (Daihatsu)

While a number of types of barges are used by the Japanese army, it is thought that the enemy will concentrate on the large landing barge, see accompanying illustrations. The usual type of barge is about 49 feet long and 12 feet wide, with the conventional pointed bow, although some of the same size and general construction have a double bow to support a landing-ramp.

Usually, the construction is reported to be of wood--teak, Oregon pine, or whatever local varieties are available. Apparently steel or composite construction -- wood on a steel frame -- is also used. Plating of 5/8-inch steel may be applied to protect personnel. At any rate, the boats are simple, sturdy, easily built, seaworthy and cheap. From information received, it is inferred that the cargo capacity is about eleven short tons. They would carry 10 horses, or a light tank, and an automobile, or 70 fully equipped men exclusive of a barge crew of seven, which presumably, includes some sort of a machine-gun, or AA-gun crew. A 60-horsepower gasoline or heavy-fuel motor installed aft gives a speed of 8 knots, equivalent to about 9 miles per hour. Although not decked over, such barges are capable of covering considerable distances of open sea and present a logistic factor that must be taken into consideration.”


Even allowing for the British .50 not being the same as the US .50, most fire is delivered flat, above the waterline and penetrate above cargos; human or other.

Penetrate nicely, sink as said above, not easily

I had the post as referring to ocean going or intercostal barges, not the Daihatsu. The Japanese maritime tradition included relatively small intercostal craft, similar to the Thames River Barges found along the British thames estuary and coast. The Japanese used some of these in the S Pacific as they could operate much easier in the reef strewn waters and small plantation harbors or open beaches. They were hard to sink, tho anything hitting the unprotected engine & fuel tanks left them dead in the water & leaking.
 
I had the post as referring to ocean going or intercostal barges, not the Daihatsu. The Japanese maritime tradition included relatively small intercostal craft, similar to the Thames River Barges found along the British thames estuary and coast. The Japanese used some of these in the S Pacific as they could operate much easier in the reef strewn waters and small plantation harbors or open beaches. They were hard to sink, tho anything hitting the unprotected engine & fuel tanks left them dead in the water & leaking.

The Daihatsu are probably a much better match to barges suggested.

My Dad’s mate used .50 incendiary to set fire to barges, and the 20mm to finish off those in the water (beaufighter pilot)
 
First, you plucked "5" RN warships lost out of thin air. [...] the RN might lose 20 warships in one day.
I rather enjoy the irony in your first statement here. You yourself have plucked an awful lot of numbers or of thin air. On the rare occasions that you do bring numbers to the table, they're being used like a drunk uses a lamppost: support, rather than illumination. Using hit rates from DD stern chases to illustrate how escorts of a slow moving convoy will fare in battle could, at best, be described as disingenuous. Continuing to do so when the lack of comparability is pointed out is nothing less than intellectual dishonesty.

Secondly, if the RN do lose 20 warships, they have more. This is the fundamental problem with Sea Lion. Warship losses of 2:1, or even 4:1, in favour of the KM, don't help. Because the RN have more. Similarly, the RN can engage the KM escorts at odds of 4:1 in favour of the RN, and still have plenty spare to get in amongst the barges. Why? Because the RN have more. They have more, and will use it all in the defense of the British Isles.
Informed by who? I know the guesstimate of 10 destroyers has come up in this thread which is why I've dusted off my Invasion of England 1940 by Peter Schenk.
The Germans had 7 destroyers (with unreliable high pressure machinery), Z10, Z20, Z5, Z6, Z15, Z14, & Z16. Z4 was in dockyard hands until 21st Sept, Z8 until 4th Oct & Z17 until 15th Oct.
Apologies. I brought the 10 figure into the thread. I said that, at best, the KM had ten Z boats afloat on the reputed D-day. In comparison to the RN, who were using upwards of 20 to support ops such as the evacuation of Narvik. A rather minor op compared to literally the defence of the United Kingdom.

Seven, or ten. It makes very little difference, though. Because the RN have more. So much more. To use an analogy from the world of boxing, you've just downgraded the KM from bantamweight to flyweight. Jack Tar is a heavyweight, either way.

TL;DR: Sea Lion doesn't work, because whatever happens, the RN have more than enough to stop it. Because the RN have more.
 

Deleted member 94680

Only if "anti-aircraft artillery" = 88s.
But 88s are a subset of "anti-aircraft artillery"
There fore paragraph 3 (a) does not prove that "88s were definitely part of the plan".
I'm not saying they weren't or that they were. All I'm saying is that the above logic is faulty.

Apologies. I was, as usual by this stage of a USM thread, being sarcastic. Certain other posters have begun clinging to the 88 as some sort of silver bullet to sink or at least scare off the RN from the barges. I was mocking this assumption.
 
Right, the RN had hundreds of armed trawlers and such that would enter the fray as the battle moved to the beach. But the battle has to get to the beach for that to happen, that is, the invasion has to brush through the 80 x RN warships that attacked previously.

The problem with crushing the invasion "at their leisure" is that if the first wave lands intact it gets harder to crush the invasion on the beach. The British army in 1940 didn't have that many good "attack" divisions, and unit for unit, the Germans were better.

No they're not, because the divisions you are talking about are stripped down to just infantry landing with very few supplies, no armour, very little artilary and no support or transport, just being German isn't enough





If the Germans got ashore, the British might deploy reserves to contain them (a la Anzio), but to throw them back might not be possible. The barges - the weakest part of the invasion - weren't required to run supplies and more men to an established position, they were needed for the first mass of 100,000 to land. The supply after that could be done by other transports, (warships, motor boats, trawlers, tugs, anything that could make 8kt or better).

No because such boats can't supply to beaches, the Germans need to seize ports but even more so they need to seize working ports. On top of this the RN is still about and will be sinking these supply boats/ships





The exception to that idea would be the 2nd wave, which would require a large barge transportation force.


No the 1st wave was going to need the barges, since they were the closest the Germans had to beach landing craft. They were going to have to try and recover and reuse the barges though.



If an "Anzio" situation were to evolve, it might come to a point where the British decide to make peace, or that the Germans reverse the direction and start evacuating, or that they just bear down and decide to ride it out into 1941 in a bridgehead. None of these scenarios are good for the British, so turning the invasion back before it lands would be best I think.

It won't be an Anzio situation so this is wrong, the only difference here is the German lose damp and not wet and maybe a higher percentage of POWs and less drowned.


I also suggest you actually read up a bit on Anzio, the relative force level etc in comparison to Sealion


just on the wiki:


The landings began on January 22, 1944.

Although resistance had been expected, as seen at Salerno during 1943, the initial landings were essentially unopposed, with the exception of desultory Luftwaffe strafing runs.

By midnight, 36,000 soldiers and 3,200 vehicles had landed on the beaches. Thirteen Allied troops were killed, and 97 wounded; about 200 Germans had been taken as POWs.[17] The 1st Division penetrated 2 miles (3 km) inland, the Rangers captured Anzio's port, the 509th PIB captured Nettuno, and the 3rd Division penetrated 3 miles (5 km) inland.



so no fighting through a RN or RAF eqivilent

here's the killer tidbit though that really distinguishes between the envisioned Sealion and the latter allied amphibious landings

One of the problems with the plan was the availability of landing ships. The American commanders in particular were determined that nothing should delay the Normandy invasion and the supporting landings in southern France. Operation Shingle would require the use of landing ships necessary for these operations. Initially Shingle was to release these assets by January 15. However, this being deemed problematic, President Roosevelt granted permission for the craft to remain until February 5.

Only enough tank landing ships (LSTs) to land a single division were initially available to Shingle. Later, at Churchill's personal insistence, enough were made available to land two divisions. Allied intelligence thought that five or six German divisions were in the area, although U.S. 5th Army intelligence severely underestimated the German 10th Army's fighting capacity at the time, believing many of their units would be worn out after the defensive battles fought since September.


Not in the planners of Sealion wildest dreams would they have enough LST to land an armoured division, and yet that level of availability was enough to put the allied operation in doubt until they just decided to free up enough to double the available number.

Now you talk about the breakout and suggest Sea lion would be like that, lets look at the first line of the wiki section on that:

At 5:45 a.m. May 23, 1944, 1,500 Allied artillery pieces commenced bombardment. Forty minutes later the guns paused as attacks were made by close air support and then resumed as the infantry and armour moved forward.[59] The first day's fighting was intense: the 1st Armored Division lost 100 tanks and 3rd Infantry Division suffered 955 casualties, the highest single day figure for any U.S. division during World War II. The Germans suffered too, with the 362nd Infantry Division estimated to have lost 50% of its fighting strength

So not only are we talking 4 months after the landing (there's a story there of course), but what's this? 1500 artillery pieces? Close air support? Enough armour to lose 100 tanks in the first day and still win? Doe this sound anything like what was available to the 1st wave of Sealion?

And lets look at the naval assets available for the initial landing of 36k men and 3,200 vehicles (from the OOB from the wiki)

"Peter" Force

Rear Admiral Thomas H. Troubridge, RN
Comprising 2 light cruisers (HMS Orion, HMS Spartan), 12 destroyers, 2 anti-aircraft/fighter director ships, 2 gunboats, 6 minesweepers, 4 transports, 63 landing craft, 6 patrol craft, 1 oiler, 1 net tender, 2 tugs, 4 hospital ships, 1 submarine

Landed "Peter" Beach, 6 miles (9.7 km) north of Anzio:



Ranger Group.Captain E.C.L. Turner, RN

Comprising 1 transport, 1 subchaser, 7 landing craft

"X-Ray" Force
Rear Admiral Lowry
Comprising 2 light cruisers (USS Brooklyn, HMS Penelope), 11 destroyers, 2 destroyer escorts, 24 minesweepers, 166 landing craft, 20 subchasers, 3 tugs, 1 submarine, multiple salvage ships
Landed "X-Ray" Beach on the coast east of Nettuno, 6 miles (9.7 km) east of Anzio:

Bare in mind that's just for the actual landing, I'm not including the liberty ships that were used to transport the stuff before off loading to the landing craft. Although 4 transports in Peter force might be liberty ships.

Tell me again even if the KM mange to get every available ship it had to the channel what could it scrape up (bearing in mind IIRC the Sea lion plan involved pinching KM crew to man the actual invasion transport boats as well!)

Not forgetting that this force at Anzio was not having to deal with the equivalent of the RN home fleet / RAF


If 80 RN warships go after the invasion convoy in daylight, let's assume the LW response is an all-out counterattack with every plane available against the RN forces attacking, at the maximum achievable sortie rate, in order to defeat that attack. Until that was achieved, no "inland interdiction", no "bombing empty ports", no "attacking RAF airfields". Everything into the Channel, all out, as many sorties as possible, or against RN warships trying to reload ammunition in port. What happens?


The RAF meets them doing the same against them, you know the RAF the airforce that had just beaten them in the previous months, and was out producing them in both planes and aircrew.

Also since I thought you might suggest it, the RN ships might not actually have to fully disengage and go back to home ports to resupply, instead they might be resupplied from those ports by other boats allowing them to stay in the vicinity and at most temporarily withdraw locally to take on more supplies.


It's not yet a total war. How many warships could the British afford to lose before they decided to make peace instead?

Of course it's total war it's an invasion attempt following the blitz! As has been pointed out time and time again keeping the enemy off British soil has been the RN's primary job for centuries, but it's an irrelevant question because the losses won't be that great.




The IJN off Guadalcanal found that the number of sinkings and damage was too much to sustain. But, they were over 2,000 miles from home and had the room to stop fighting for Guadalcanal. Can the RN stop fighting in the Channel?

You answer your previous question here the IJN were fighting 2000 miles way from home, the RN will be fighting for their home within sight of their home to prevent an invasion of their home!

However yes the RN can stop fighting if they want to (the Germans have nothing to pin them in place with), it's just they won't want to since there's this invasion of their home going on and they are the strongest defence.

And before you go with "aha that means if any German gets past them then there's no defence", strongest doesn't mean only




I'm guessing that under air sea battle conditions in the most atypical air sea battle in modern history, an RN destroyer with let's say 1,000 rounds of main gun ammunition will fire about 250 or more at aircraft, 250 at the convoy escorts that are trying to shoot at them, will keep 200 in reserve that will not be used, (no captain fires off all his ammunition), and the other 300 at 6 targets in groups of about 50 rounds each, sinking, let's say 4 of them and damaging the other 2.

Only they won't be limited to just using their main guns against river barges most of their secondary weapons will also do the job, hell machine gun fire will likely be effective since were talking about small civilian craft manned by press-ganged civilians. Also again it won't take that many shots especially as those tugs and barges are going to be daisy chained together etc etc. All of this of course also means they are susceptible to stuff smaller than destroyers as well. Not forgetting that if need be there are bigger boats available out there starting at the Light Cruisers etc

If nothing else if they really need to the RN will be able to resupply since they are operating in their home waters close to their home ports.

Also no captain ever fires off all his ammunition? bollocks. It's especially bollocks in the situation described above!

They also won't be wasting their main gun on AA, since 1). they can go with other guns for that if need be, and 2). the RAF. So this while I know in your head the RN will be at the mercy of the LW it actually won't.

As to escorts, what escorts? The KM coming out in ahem "force", fine let the Cruisers & bigger chew them up as they pin themselves to 2kn barges. But since your gunnery assumption was the Espero stern chase the KM is actually running away from the RN as full speed!




553,099 tons in 5 months is 110,000 tons per month. If the RN in the Channel in 1940 scored at the Tunisia rate - 110,000 tons per month - against a Sealion campaign, would you say that would be enough, nor not nearly enough, to stop the invasion?

The RN finding and sinking actually grown up shipping in the med is massively different to finding and sinking tugs and barges in the channel, so it's an irrelevant question.





I was picturing it that if an RN destroyer went right in close against 40 ships that these might have more than one submarine deck gun. Am I wrong on that?

Just being there is not enough it has to be there and able to be employed effectively, and even then an 88' is far less of a threat to a destroyer than it is to a merchant ship. As I said before the prize such equipped barges get is simply being the first to be targeted.
 
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Apologies. I was, as usual by this stage of a USM thread, being sarcastic. Certain other posters have begun clinging to the 88 as some sort of silver bullet to sink or at least scare off the RN from the barges. I was mocking this assumption.
Apologies for not getting your sarcasm at the time. Unfortunately it is sometimes hard to tell the difference between those who are serious, and those who are mocking them. Often it seems that the more extreme posts are the ones who believe what they are saying.
 
Apologies for not getting your sarcasm at the time. Unfortunately it is sometimes hard to tell the difference between those who are serious, and those who are mocking them. Often it seems that the more extreme posts are the ones who believe what they are saying.

Poe's Law in action.
 
Right, the RN had hundreds of armed trawlers and such that would enter the fray as the battle moved to the beach. But the battle has to get to the beach for that to happen, that is, the invasion has to brush through the 80 x RN warships that attacked previously.
Yes, this provides the invasion force with another difficulty; the purpose-built warships can strip away the German escorts and do initial damage, before the auxiliaries, second-line and coastal force units can go in against the actual invasion force.

The problem with crushing the invasion "at their leisure" is that if the first wave lands intact it gets harder to crush the invasion on the beach. The British army in 1940 didn't have that many good "attack" divisions, and unit for unit, the Germans were better. If the Germans got ashore, the British might deploy reserves to contain them (a la Anzio), but to throw them back might not be possible. The barges - the weakest part of the invasion - weren't required to run supplies and more men to an established position, they were needed for the first mass of 100,000 to land. The supply after that could be done by other transports, (warships, motor boats, trawlers, tugs, anything that could make 8kt or better). The exception to that idea would be the 2nd wave, which would require a large barge transportation force. If an "Anzio" situation were to evolve, it might come to a point where the British decide to make peace, or that the Germans reverse the direction and start evacuating, or that they just bear down and decide to ride it out into 1941 in a bridgehead. None of these scenarios are good for the British, so turning the invasion back before it lands would be best I think.

You greatly overestimate the ability of the Germans to supply troops over beaches without specialised landing craft. These will be needed, as the south coast ports available (if captured, and if captured intact) did not have the capacity to unload the supplies needed for the planned landing force. As such, the barges will be needed, because they're the closest thing to a proper landing craft available. These will be easy targets for the RN. A force that is contained and cannot be supplied will soon surrender; it will not be able to expand the beachhead, the troops will run out of food and ammunition, and will not be able to prevent the British crushing them. An Anzio situation favours the British (and it will occur, because the Germans weren't landing motorised forces in the first wave), because the Germans will not be able to support the pocket beyond a few weeks in the most optimistic case. Turning back the invasion before it lands would be perfect, but even so, a landing would be easily survivable for the British.




If 80 RN warships go after the invasion convoy in daylight, let's assume the LW response is an all-out counterattack with every plane available against the RN forces attacking, at the maximum achievable sortie rate, in order to defeat that attack. Until that was achieved, no "inland interdiction", no "bombing empty ports", no "attacking RAF airfields". Everything into the Channel, all out, as many sorties as possible, or against RN warships trying to reload ammunition in port. What happens?

Well, firstly, the British Army is able to move into position to best oppose the invasion without any issues. The Luftwaffe will take heavier casualties over the Channel than it would have otherwise, and Bomber Command will have a much easier time hitting the invasion convoys. Targeting the Royal Navy will be a lot harder than hitting railway lines or airbases, since the vast majority of the Luftwaffe wasn't trained to attack ships, and often had trouble doing so. During 1940, there were a total of 68 bombing attacks that caused damage to British destroyers; of these, 11 were sunk, 21 seriously damaged and 36 slightly damaged. Of the 11 sunk, six of these were in confined waters, and five were stationary or anchored at the time of the attack. Two of the ships seriously damaged were so damaged in the Mediterranean, by Italian aircraft, while at least six more were moored; for lightly damaged ships, the total either attacked by Italians or moored was 8. As such, German attacks on British destroyers at sea sank 5 ships, seriously damaged 13, and slightly damaged 28, for a total of 46. Ignoring the uncounted attacks that did no damage at all, we can estimate the likelihood of an attacked destroyer sinking at ~10%; this is certainly an overestimate, as we only counted attacks that led to damage. Cutting this number in half seems reasonable; 5% unrecoverable losses would absolutely be survivable for the RN, and 10% would be doable - remember, heavier loss ratios were accepted at Dunkirk. I am ignoring the possibility of attacking ships attempting to reload in port, because to do so would require either occasionally 'bombing empty ports' or a level of aerial reconnaissance that is highly unlikely.


It's not yet a total war. How many warships could the British afford to lose before they decided to make peace instead? The IJN off Guadalcanal found that the number of sinkings and damage was too much to sustain. But, they were over 2,000 miles from home and had the room to stop fighting for Guadalcanal. Can the RN stop fighting in the Channel?

It becomes a total war the instant you try to invade Britain; the RN will not stop fighting in the Channel, because this is the raison d'etre of the RN.



I'm guessing that under air sea battle conditions in the most atypical air sea battle in modern history, an RN destroyer with let's say 1,000 rounds of main gun ammunition will fire about 250 or more at aircraft, 250 at the convoy escorts that are trying to shoot at them, will keep 200 in reserve that will not be used, (no captain fires off all his ammunition), and the other 300 at 6 targets in groups of about 50 rounds each, sinking, let's say 4 of them and damaging the other 2.

An RN destroyer captain will fire no main gun rounds at aircraft, because his main guns do not elevate sufficiently to target dive-bombers or level bombers, being intended for use against torpedo bombers instead; the Germans had a lot of the former, but very few of the latter. This nearly doubles the number of rounds available. Secondly, RN captains proved willing to fire off the vast majority of their ammunition; against the Espero convoy, Tovey's cruisers fired close to 5000 6-in rounds, leaving just 800 in the entire Mediterranean theatre; this suggests that, if these were all aboard Tovey's cruisers, they would have an average of ~20 rounds per gun. Scaling this to a destroyer, it would suggest that just 100 rounds would be retained. Finally, RN accuracy was enough that they would score hits on more than 6 targets with 300 rounds; doubling this would be more reasonable, especially on small barges. Taking all this into account, we would expect 26 targets to be sunk/damaged, not to mention damage done by torpedoes, AA guns, ramming, or the confusion caused by the arrival of the destroyers.


553,099 tons in 5 months is 110,000 tons per month. If the RN in the Channel in 1940 scored at the Tunisia rate - 110,000 tons per month - against a Sealion campaign, would you say that would be enough, nor not nearly enough, to stop the invasion?

The rate doesn't tell you much; 110,000 tons/month is nothing if a billion tons of shipping is being used, dangerous if a million, and if 110,000 tons is being used, it's catastrophic. What you have to look at is the percentage of ships sunk, and that was 20-50%; this would be an unsustainable rate of loss for a Sealion campaign.


Bone and Malta were about 6 hours steaming from the major Axis ports. How much closer did they need to be?

They needed to be two-three hours away, such that the raiding force could get in, fight, and get out, under cover of darkness. They also needed to not be on the other side of a massive minefield, laid over the course of several months.


Ajax had radar fire control in that battle, hence the big difference in performance.

No, she didn't. She had the Type 279 radar, an air-search radar which in theory had the capability to range on surface targets. In practice, it had a poor range against destroyer-sized targets - experiments suggested that two miles was all that could be expected- and commanders typically preferred to keep it on air-search mode to give warning of any incoming aircraft. In any case, the radar was disabled by the second hit on Ajax, which occurred before she opened fire. The entire engagement was carried out without the use of radar.




Yes, from the ammunition expenditure profile I sketched up response, I think to win the battle and repulse the invasion, I think it's pretty clear the RN would need to do exactly that, plus use air and RN aux. forces. That it did not have the ammunition aboard the RN 80 warships otherwise to repel Sealion in one go.

Yes, the RN will need to keep coming back until the Germans stop; this is not surprising, and should not be. The point is that the RN, for as long as the Germans choose to keep up an invasion attempt, can cause unsustainable losses to it.


Two things. First, when the captain of Jarvis Bay turned and challenged the Scheer, do you think he was under the illusion he could "effectively engage" a pocket battleship? What do you think he was doing? Second, if an RN destroyer group encounters a dozen enemy motor boats sailing ahead of the convoy, do you think they might attack them, or just wave and sail on by?

In answer to your first, he was buying time for the convoy to scatter. This is fine for a convoy of merchant ships, which have no pressing need to arrive together, in a consistent order, or at a particular time and place. The complete opposite is true for amphibious shipping. If you try to scatter an amphibious convoy, you end up with troops penny-packeted all over the place, follow-up units landed before the assault troops, supplies landed far from the units that need them, and all sorts of confusion. This is not conducive to success. Also, the merchant ships of HX 84 were quite a bit faster than the amphibious convoys planned for Sealion, meaning that scattering was much more effective for them. In answer to your second, they will fight, they will win in short order, and then they will be able to attack the convoy they were escorting, because it cannot scatter. If it does scatter, then job done; the Army will get a lot of practice mopping up scattered platoons of German soldiers.


Samar is just an example of an air sea battle where the overwhelming surface superiority didn't pan out due to the grinding effects of constant - even if largely ineffective - air attacks. You list a bunch of reasons why you think this example won't play in an air sea battle in 1940. But we don't really know, do we?

Samar is also an example of a commander having a limited amount of time to fight because of an overwhelming enemy force that could arrive over the horizon at any time. The possible arrival of Halsey, or of Kinkaid's battleships, weighed on Kurita's mind just as much as the constant air attacks. The Kriegsmarine had no such overwhelming force available; the RN could remain in the Channel for as long as it chose. The situation is a lot closer to Crete than it is Samar, hence why I use it as an example.


I was picturing it that if an RN destroyer went right in close against 40 ships that these might have more than one submarine deck gun. Am I wrong on that?

My point was that all the submarines the RN fought on the surface, put together, scored two hits, neither of which did any significant damage. We could expect similar effects from a convoy of barges of the same size (though likely worse, because naval gunnery is a hard skill to teach, especially in a limited time).
 
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Glenn is, once again, citing the Tunisia campaign and, once again, forgetting that you cannot compare the two as the Italians and Germans were not towing river barges very slowly from Sicily to Tunisia and back again. If they had been then it would have been even more of a slaughter than it was.
Frankly this is senseless. We get the same old arguments that were deployed and dismissed years ago as Glenn desperately defends the indefensible.
 
I wasn't referring to the war game that they made the book about, I was referring to one of the many invasion games they ran.
It was quite a regular game (not every year, but often).
No it wasn't, it was designed specifically for it's sponsor the Daily Telegraph by Paddy Griffiths.
 
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