On Equalizing Morganatic Marriages in the Holy Roman Empire

[Kellan Sullivan]

Got bored - this happened ...

George II of Great Britain, b. 1683, r. 1727 to 1760, m. Caroline of Ahnsbach

1) Frederick, Prince of Wales, b. 1707, d. 1751, m. Lady Diana Spencer (i)​

3) William IV of Great Britain, b. 1721, r. 1760 to 1765, m. Maria Amalia of Hesse Kassell (ii)​

a) Prince William of Wales, b. 1744, d. 1750​

​

(i) IOTL, the match was vetoed by Robert Walpole and George II, but here it goes ahead. In turn, in May 1736, the King wishes to visit Hanover but ends up sending Frederick and Diana. On the return, Frederick falls ill with a fever and piles and dies before producing an heir.
(ii) Maria Amalia dies in childbirth with her first child, William, but the child subs

Inspired by this post, a question popped into my head.

Say, Poor Fred had married Diana, the marriage would've been "morganatic" under terms of the Holy Roman Empire. England wouldn't have ponied up the funding for the hochadel tax to equalize the marriage to keep what was essentially an albatross (and I doubt Fred would have been overly interested in such a scheme either). Butcher Cumberland, marries equally, inherits Hannover and things plod along for a decade or two.

Then William's line goes extinct in the male-line (say, around the 1780s/1790s Cumberland's legitimate son dies and he had only daughters). Frederick is dead, Diana is probably dead, but they have surviving issue (unlike her Bedford marriage of OTL).

Is the "electorate of Hannover" allowed to go extinct in Germany? Or does the king of England get the title? I could understand that it might be dependent on whether or not the Empire needs an alliance with England at the time, but "legally speaking", what would happen to the title?

@The Professor @isabella @Urbanus VII @mcdnab @anyone?

 

[Gokbay]

There would have to be someone else with a claim to Hanover who can take the throne.

 

[The Professor]

Legally speaking I think it's technically extinct and dependent on the Emperor to bestow.
However current relations with Britain might allow a retroactive equalisation depending on everyone involved agrees.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

There would have to be someone else with a claim to Hanover who can take the throne.

There would still be Welfs in Brunswick, but their male-line relation to the Hannovers would predate the electoral creation.

However current relations with Britain might allow a retroactive equalisation depending on everyone involved agrees.

I know this is POST-Holy Roman Imperial abolition but isn't this what happened with the situation in Baden in the 1820s?

 

[mcdnab]

It's an interesting point - however its worth bearing in mind that within the Holy Roman Emperor the sovereign prince's all had their own house rules relating to succession, division of territorial holdings and marriages etc - the Emperor invariably approved house laws etc - there's a couple of imperial laws dating from the 18th century relating to misalliance and morganatic marriage but largely it was left up to the individual houses unless the marriage was notoriously unacceptable and the prince's clamoured for an imperial judgement.
There is some discussion about what rank a woman held that made her unequal - was it anyone who wasn't from a reigning or mediatized house (as the trend became in the late 18th and 19th century) or was marriage to the lower non-reigning aristocracy acceptable etc. Some houses absolutely accepted marriage as equal if the woman was of comital (count) rank for example others didn't.
It was the 19th century when the various German houses started clarifying and codifying their individual rules as they become completely sovereign with the dissolution of the HRE.
There was nothing in law for example to stop the head of a reigning house to declare that the descendants of a morganatic marriage could succeed if the rest of the family agnates were amenable or they could be bullied into submission (or accepted it was that or extinction in some cases).
So if Frederick marries Diana - 1) Does his father the King accept the marriage in which case irrespective of precedent within the house of Hanover it is likely that would be regarded as meaning the head of the house accepts the marriage as equal with regard his Imperial holdings (given George II's mother's background it would be remarkably hypocritical of him to do otherwise one might think) - 2) Is there an outcry within the HRE at such a misalliance which could force the Emperor to react declaring the match invalid and that the couple's issue would not be able to inherit the electoral lands within the Empire - 3) Does the House of Hanover agree to the match arguing Diana is of comital rank and that it is up to the individual princely house to determine the equality of a spouse etc.

Personal view is George II privately furious has no choice but to accept the match - there weren't a ton of agnates around to object to the match in any case - I doubt anyone in Germany is going to do more than cast a snide comment on the "common" Princess of Wales later Queen/Electress. In due course Frederick succeeds his father as King and Elector.

 

[isabella]

It's an interesting point - however its worth bearing in mind that within the Holy Roman Emperor the sovereign prince's all had their own house rules relating to succession, division of territorial holdings and marriages etc - the Emperor invariably approved house laws etc - there's a couple of imperial laws dating from the 18th century relating to misalliance and morganatic marriage but largely it was left up to the individual houses unless the marriage was notoriously unacceptable and the prince's clamoured for an imperial judgement.
There is some discussion about what rank a woman held that made her unequal - was it anyone who wasn't from a reigning or mediatized house (as the trend became in the late 18th and 19th century) or was marriage to the lower non-reigning aristocracy acceptable etc. Some houses absolutely accepted marriage as equal if the woman was of comital (count) rank for example others didn't.
It was the 19th century when the various German houses started clarifying and codifying their individual rules as they become completely sovereign with the dissolution of the HRE.
There was nothing in law for example to stop the head of a reigning house to declare that the descendants of a morganatic marriage could succeed if the rest of the family agnates were amenable or they could be bullied into submission (or accepted it was that or extinction in some cases).
So if Frederick marries Diana - 1) Does his father the King accept the marriage in which case irrespective of precedent within the house of Hanover it is likely that would be regarded as meaning the head of the house accepts the marriage as equal with regard his Imperial holdings (given George II's mother's background it would be remarkably hypocritical of him to do otherwise one might think) - 2) Is there an outcry within the HRE at such a misalliance which could force the Emperor to react declaring the match invalid and that the couple's issue would not be able to inherit the electoral lands within the Empire - 3) Does the House of Hanover agree to the match arguing Diana is of comital rank and that it is up to the individual princely house to determine the equality of a spouse etc.

Personal view is George II privately furious has no choice but to accept the match - there weren't a ton of agnates around to object to the match in any case - I doubt anyone in Germany is going to do more than cast a snide comment on the "common" Princess of Wales later Queen/Electress. In due course Frederick succeeds his father as King and Elector.

Is possible having George II settling the succession on William and his line with Frederick’s line allowed to inherit if his brother’s male line ended?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Is possible having George II settling the succession on William and his line with Frederick’s line allowed to inherit if his brother’s male line ended?

This is what I wasthinking afterreading @mcdnab's post. After all, IIRC George II considered a Catholic match for Cumberland (a Savoy or Este princess) to likewise split the inheritance once Fred had kids of his own

 

[JonasResende]

Wasn't there also a reichstax that the prince who married morganatically had to pay to have the marriage recognized as equal. An example I'm thinking of is der Alte Dessauer who married a pharmacist's daughter (Anna Luise Föse), but the marriage was no bar on their kids inheriting. Although his eldest son (IIRC) also wed morganatically but it WASN'T equalized and the Dessau succession passed to his younger son (who married equally).

Another example is the margraves of Baden-Baden (Ludwig Georg and August Wilhelm): both married girls from noble (but not royal) families, a Schwarzenberg and a d'Arenberg, but there was never any question about the equality of the marriages AFAIK.

 

[mcdnab]

I think also a lot of people might use the example of the 1st Duke of Gloucester (brother to George III) whose children while styled as British Royal's in Great Britain and in Hanover were not styled or included as members of the House of Brunswick and notably the 2nd Duke of Gloucester was not treated as an agnate of the family when the family compact of 1831 was drawn up - which suggests his parents marriage was definitely considered morganatic in Germany.
However Gloucester's wife was the illegitimate daughter of a knight and hardly offered an illustrious background, while Diana is the daughter of an Earl and granddaughter of a Duke.

 

[VVD0D95]

I think also a lot of people might use the example of the 1st Duke of Gloucester (brother to George III) whose children while styled as British Royal's in Great Britain and in Hanover were not styled or included as members of the House of Brunswick and notably the 2nd Duke of Gloucester was not treated as an agnate of the family when the family compact of 1831 was drawn up - which suggests his parents marriage was definitely considered morganatic in Germany.
However Gloucester's wife was the illegitimate daughter of a knight and hardly offered an illustrious background, while Diana is the daughter of an Earl and granddaughter of a Duke.

Not just any Duke either, but a Prince of the HRE as well

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Not just any Duke either, but a Prince of the HRE as well

Unfortunately the principality of Mindelsheim had once again gone extinct in 1722. Joseph I had had the intention of creating Marlborough as "duke of Nellenburg/Nellenberg" in Austria, which would have (AIUI) been able to transmit to daughters, and had it gone to Anne, Countess Sunderland, it might have gone a ways to solving the problem. However, the region's estates refused to allow such a creation, citing that it was "illegal", so Jack Churchill had to make do with Mindelsheim instead

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Not just any Duke either, but a Prince of the HRE as well

Sorry, my bad:

After the Treaty of Utrecht led to the loss of his Principality of Mindelheim, it was discussed to make John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough prince of Nellenburg. Austrian law did not allow for the elevation into a sovereign principality though, and the plan was dropped in or after 1717. Nellenburg, therefore, never became a principality or a state of the Holy Roman Empire

Which means that even if Diana had been a male-line descendant of Jack Churchill, such a marriage would likely have been on the same level as a marriage between a Welf and a Harrach girl (when Ercole III d'Este married her, it was regarded as morganatic, even though Italian law didn't acknowledge such things; same for Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia's second marriage to a Harrach) or a Hohenzollern and a Radziwill.

 

[VVD0D95]

Sorry, my bad:

Which means that even if Diana had been a male-line descendant of Jack Churchill, such a marriage would likely have been on the same level as a marriage between a Welf and a Harrach girl (when Ercole III d'Este married her, it was regarded as morganatic, even though Italian law didn't acknowledge such things; same for Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia's second marriage to a Harrach) or a Hohenzollern and a Radziwill.

Ahhh a shame