i quite like this timeline, but it confuses me with all its jumping about...
nevertheless, keep it coming!
nevertheless, keep it coming!
Norman Egypt
- Thread starter The Sicilian
- Start date
IIRC the Ottomans came with the group of Turks that migrated after the Mongols, which involves a lot of butterflies.
If you're talking about the Hauteville's in Sicily, then the Pope can't do jack shit. They relied upon the Normans for protection from the Holy Roman Emperors during the investiture. The Italo-Normans basically had a stranglehold on Rome due to geography, which could lead the Popes to evacuate to somewhere outside of Italy, say Trier or Mainz.
In terms of the Normans in Egypt, the Pope, once again, cannot do jack shit. Egypt is too far away and too powerful to call a crusade against. Besides, the Hautevilles in Egypt have two of the five historical Patriarchs under their thumb. If the Bishop of Rome gets too uppity, he they can turn to the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Jerusalem.
So the Pope has little chance in influencing the Hauteville family's domestic policy unless they Papacy doesn't mind becoming subordinate to the wishes of the Holy Roman Emperors? In which case, if the Hautevilles maintain a lasting political dominance in the Levant, then most of the crusaders will see the neccessity to ingratiate themselves with the established rulers there for lands and employment, since they have two Patriarchates in their pocket?
Sorry also about the text. I'm shit at editing.
More or less yes, except in some cases they both have shared interests. The Pope and H.R. Emperor teamed up during the church schism of 1130, and tried to oust the Hauteville dynasty from Southern Italy. Neither was subservient to eachother ideologically, though the Emperor was the one with more soldiers. Norman domination of Papal politics could lead to further schisms down the road, between German and Sicilian backed candidates, until one is driven from the peninsula (guess who
)
I'll have to think about this one, though I suspect that most crusaders not sympathetic to the Normans in general, or the Hauteville Dynasty in particular, would go to the border Marches in Mesopotamia and Syria.
Sorry also about the text. I'm shit at editing.[/quote]
Say, not meaning to change this T.L's progress, but if Egypt and the Crusader States remained stable in the coming centuries, then wouldn't the Popes not direct future crusades against the Muslim Caliphates in North Africa and Spain? Or would they just try to push deeper into Asia?
Why would they stop? You'd think successful crusades would just encourage more of the same. North Africa is pretty cut off from the Muslims, so it coudl be easier prey.
Thats what I'm saying. As the "Holy Land" and the countries adjacent to it are in Christian hands, wouldn't the Popes wish to send expeditions further into Asia or North Africa? Perhaps they might take a geographically easier targets like Almoravid Empire and the Tunisian Sultanate, as they are now isolated from their co-religionists in the east? Or perhaps they feel strong enough to attack the Seljurk heartlands or go nuts and storm into the Arabian peninsula? Which one of those directions will the next wave of crusaders go after?
Well ok, I'm doubtful that they'll decide to hit Arabia itself, but they will attempt to hit at where Islam's real military power lies. Unless Sicilian has already decided to butterfly him away, I think a man like Saladin could at least prove a thorn in the side of the Levantine Christian Coalition. And while the Almoravids in Spain and Morroco are closer to home, the North African Muslim states were somewhat more militarily lethargic as time wore on and easily contained and distracted, not to mention perhaps economically less important than the eastern Muslim states. So maybe a prolonged offensive toward Mesopotamia and Iran may be likely.
Oh, I thought you were saying the crusades would stop all together... I misread it... my fault.
Arabia is out of the picture as a long term conquest. Too much desert, not enough water, and it's too important to the Muslims to let it fall without an epic bloodbath. However, some naval raids on African and Arabian ports wouldn't be out of order, especially on Jedda (the port to Mecca). Reynauld de Chatillon attempted one such raid in the 1180's, I believe. It was a complete flaming disaster, of course, but with a stronger base of operations the Crusaders could pull of some spectacular antics on the Red Sea.
Spain and North Africa are fucked.
Mesopotamia is an interesting idea, but either the Crusade would have to be channeled through Edessa, or it'd have to go through the Syrian desert. The riches of the Tigris and Euphrates would be tempting, but it wouldn't have the same religious zeal as Palestine (unless there are some major Christian sites in Mesopotamia. Leo? AJ?). However, it is far away from the Crusader power base in Palestine, which is very far away from the Catholic power base in Western Europe. If the crusaders invest too much into such a venture, they could be destroyed.
However, once the Mongols show up (and they will), everything is thrown up in the air.
Spain and North Africa are fucked.
Mesopotamia is an interesting idea, but either the Crusade would have to be channeled through Edessa, or it'd have to go through the Syrian desert. The riches of the Tigris and Euphrates would be tempting, but it wouldn't have the same religious zeal as Palestine (unless there are some major Christian sites in Mesopotamia. Leo? AJ?). However, it is far away from the Crusader power base in Palestine, which is very far away from the Catholic power base in Western Europe. If the crusaders invest too much into such a venture, they could be destroyed.
However, once the Mongols show up (and they will), everything is thrown up in the air.
I agree... The kings of Spain are going to want a few spare crusaders to come their way...
There are some Christians in Mesopotamia... mostly East Syrian Orthodox IIRC... Don't know if there are major Christian sites, though...
Mind you, adventures into Kerela might not be out of the question... All those Thomasite Christians and all
If they do decide to send expeditions deeper into Asia, then I guess some of those Prestor John myths could serve as motivation.
Philip
Donor
Agreed
This is getting quite far from the Normans' power base. And straight into the Turks'. It is likely to lead to disaster. I could easily see the Crusaders push into Mesopotamia, get out flanked, and have their supply lines cut. Attacking the Egypt and Palestine allowed for resupply via the Med once a couple of ports were taken. Not so in Mesopotamia.
I would say that any serious expedition is quite out of the question at this time. The logistics are just too difficult.
There's a shrine dedicated to Jonah in Mosul - it was originally a church, but it was later (allthough I'm not sure exactly when) converted into a mosque.
There's also a shrine dedicated to Abraham somewhere in northern Mesopotamia, but I don't recall exactly where.
There were fairly large Syriac Orthodox and Nestorian communities in the northern half of Mesopotamia, but the Christian communities in the south (Baghdad and everything south of it) were quite a bit smaller and mainly concentrated in the cities.
The toppling of Spain and North Africa has two major direct effects that I can see. One, there will be a mass exodus of Mahgrebi and Aldalusi Muslims across the Sahara, bringing with them advanced concepts in architecture, mathematics and technology. They would probably settle in one of the West African gold/salt kingdoms (Songhay/Mali/Ghana - I forget which one was around then). Overall, the technological level of West Africa would be greatly raised by the Muslim deluge.
The other effect would be the opening of the Atlantic to Italian mariners. They already have a route into the Indian ocean through Egypt. Now they have sea access to the British Isles, the North sea and eventually the Americas. Expect global trade routes to be dominated by the Italians as they construct better and faster ships.
The other effect would be the opening of the Atlantic to Italian mariners. They already have a route into the Indian ocean through Egypt. Now they have sea access to the British Isles, the North sea and eventually the Americas. Expect global trade routes to be dominated by the Italians as they construct better and faster ships.
Probably not, due to issues with climate and geography. However, it would definitely give West Africans power to resist the European salve trade.