Norman Egypt

There's a reason why he's called a wily bastard. But you have a point. He is pretty exhausted by now, so expect him kicking the bucket soon.

And I may be editing and expanding this sooner than I originally thought.
 
IIRC, they were concentrated in Anatolia, after Manzikert and such. Who was the dominant pwoer in Syria and Palestine (staging ground for an invasion of Egypt)

Only the Rum Seljuks were concentrated in Anatolia, and the Rum Seljuks were a recently formed subdivision of the Great Seljuk empire, which included Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine, all of Persia, Azerbaijan, the Khoresan, and a good part of Central Asia as well.

And under Malik Shah, the Great Seljuk empire was pretty much at it's peak, and at this point, it is certainly capable of invading Egypt.

However, during the 1080's, the Seljuk governors of Anatolia (Suleyman ibn Kutalmish) and Syria (Tutush) rebelled, and allthough both were defeated (Suleyman was opportunistically killed by Tutush, who was captured and imprisoned by Malik Shah soon after), my guess is that these rebellions were propably disruptive enough to prevent the Seljuks from invading Egypt.

Tutush might make an attempt to invade Egypt, but invading Egypt and making an enemy out of the powerful Normans would be rather foolish at this point - especially since he still has Malik Shah to deal with.

But both Suleyman ibn Kutalmish and Tutush were defeated in 1086, so Malik Shah does have an opportunity to invade Egypt in the period between 1086 and his death in 1092.

However, after the death of Malik Shah, civil war breaks out between the many claimants to the throne, which results in the fragmentation of the Great Seljuk empire. After this point, the Seljuks are no longer a threat to the Normans in Egypt, especially since the Seljuk rulers of Syria were particularly weak.

But remember, the Normans have the Byzantines on their side, who would most likely be thirsting for blood after Manzikert.

Methinks the Byzantines would me more concerned with reconquering their lost territories in Anatolia than with defying the Great Seljuk - the Byzantines had lost pretty much all of Anatolia at this point.

And since Suleyman ibn Kutalmish, the governor of Anatolia, rebelled againest Malik Shah, the latter is propably not going to make a big fuss about the Byzantines attacking Suleyman's territories.
 
I must say that I like this TL, but there are a few minor flaws that I'd like to point out: as I mentioned earlier, Anatolia was not the centre of the Great Seljuk empire - Persia was, and Malik Shah never ruled from Anatolia; his capital was Isfahan.

And I have to say that 1084 is too early for Malik Shah to mount an invasion of Egypt, as he still had to deal with Tutush and Suleyman ibn Kutalmish at this point. However, like I explained earlier, these rebellions were crushed in 1086, and Malik Shah should have the opportunity to invade Egypt somewhere between 1086 and his death in 1092.
 
:)

Thank you Ran. I must say that clears some things up. I have no good print sources on the Seljuks (and my one on the Fatimids isn't top-notch either :(), and I hate using crap like Wikipedia as a source. If you could suggest some books, that would be extremely helpful.

Having the Seljuks delay their invasion a few years would mean that Guiscard could devote more time and energy to Italy.

***
On another note, I am thinking of putting in some long-term consequences that are 'interesting', such as the Nestorian Tibet idea I raised earlier. :D
 
:)

Thank you Ran. I must say that clears some things up. I have no good print sources on the Seljuks (and my one on the Fatimids isn't top-notch either :(), and I hate using crap like Wikipedia as a source. If you could suggest some books, that would be extremely helpful.

Having the Seljuks delay their invasion a few years would mean that Guiscard could devote more time and energy to Italy.

Well, if you want to find some good books about the Seljuks and the Fatimids, then I can definitely recommend Google Books, which not only allows you to search for good books on whatever subject you're looking for, but also allows you to read a preview of most of those books online.

However, the size of those previews varies per book, and some books only allow you to view a small excerpt.

Another good trick for finding information on such subjects, is looking at the sources that the relevant Wikipedia articles cite - the books and sites that such articles can be much more interesting than the articles that cite them, and those books and articles can't be edited by random visitors.

And as far as online sources go; I can definitely reccommend this site, which is a Wikipedia-like site, except that it can't be edited and contains only information from the 1911 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

And in case of the Great Seljuk empire, the Encyclopedia Iranica should also be useful.

On another note, I am thinking of putting in some long-term consequences that are 'interesting', such as the Nestorian Tibet idea I raised earlier. :D

Interesting indeed...

I'll be looking forward to your future installments for this TL.
 
Pt. 1, Edited and Expanded

Here be part one, edited and expanded:


The father of the Chancellor and Holy Man was named Geoffrey, and their mother Emma; both slender in rank and wealth, but abundant in virtue and cleverness. They were born in Flanders, and lived in Melfi. It was there that Simon and Raymond lived out their youth. Raymond as he began to grow to manhood, began to follow more prudent ways of life, and began to study, learn and exercise the rudiment of more subtle conceptions. Simon was apprenticed as a warrior and scribe to the clever Duke Robert to pay off a debt that Geoffrey owed to the Duke.

Gesta Normanni Sudensis, c. 1335. English translation by Robert FitzRoy.

***

OTL
ATL
Minor P.O.D. A merchant family from Flanders, the de Montay’s, moves to Melfi in Southern Italy. Their two sons come into the services of Robert Guiscard de Hauteville, Duke of Apulia. Everything is more or less the same as IOTL until Guiscard's invasion of the Byzantine Empire in 1081.

1050: Twin boys, Simon and Raymond, are born to Geoffrey and Emma de Montay in Flanders.

1051: The Montay's pack up and leave from
Flanders to escape creditors. They travel to Melfi, in southern Italy, where they have relatives. Geoffrey reestablishes his business a cloth merchant

1063: Raymond enters the service of Robert 'Guiscard' de Hauteville, the Duke of Apulia.

1066: Simon enters the priesthood. He develops ideas on church reform in the following years. He writes a series of essays, sanctifying certain uses of violence. These prove useful in the crusades

1071: Raymond proves himself at the sieges of Bari and Palermo. At Bari, he learns the importance of naval warfare.

1076-77: Raymond fights in the siege of Salerno.

1079: Simon, a prominent supporter of Pope Gregory VII in the Investiture Controversy, is appointed bishop of Venosa. Raymond is granted a small fief in Apulia

1081: Guiscard sails against the Byzantine Empire. He achieves a key victory over Emperor Alexios Commenos at Durazzo. Both Montay brothers act as Guiscard's administrators.

1082: Guiscard takes the key Macedonian fortress at Kastoria.

Major P.O.D.: A Byzantine emissary meets with Guiscard, and convince him to withdraw from Byzantium, and attack Fatimid Egypt.***

Bari, 1071

Raymond de Montay glared at the last vestige of Greek power in Apulia, indeed all of Italy (discounting their relation with Venice), as he boarded his ship. The mighty fortress on the Adriatic was aglow with many torches and lanterns. According to Duke Robert’s spies in Greece and the city itself, they had been set by the defenders to guide the relief force from the Emperor that was sailing toward them at that moment. A few minutes earlier, it had become evident that the fore was closer than Raymond had thought.

He was in Duke Robert’s tent, laughing merrily at the stories he told of his early career as a brigand in Calabria. Suddenly, a messenger burst in, reporting that the watchmen on the ships saw many lights, undoubtedly coming from the Byzantine fleet. The leaders of the Norman siege leapt up at the news, yelling orders, cursing the Greeks, and getting armed and armored for the coming battle, all at the same time. Raymond himself left the tent for his own, in order to collect his mail, helmet, and sword. His page grabbed the banner, which he used to rally the Normans under his command. When they had gathered, he led them to the boats.

Raymond boarded his own vessel, and waited for the rest of the army to be off. It was not long before the oars began rowing, and the Norman fleet sallied forth to meet their Greek foes. The irony of said oars being manned by Greeks themselves was not lost on Raymond, as evidenced by a brief chuckle. Roger, the brother of Duke Robert and commander of the fleet, had hoped that the Greek flotilla would mistake the Norman’s for Bariot compatriots, coming out of the harbor to welcome them. The ruse worked, and the ensuing battle was one-sided, though fierce.

Raymond’s own ship drew up close to a Byzantine one. A Greek leapt over onto the deck wielding a spear, which was cut in half by Raymond, who proceeded to behead the unfortunate Greek. The Norman knights and levies charged onto the ship, which was soon taken. All around him, Raymond saw that the Normans were victorious in their battles. Archers on one ship had dipped their arrows in pitch, which they lit aflame. The rigging and sails of a Byzantine ship they managed to set on fire. However, his fellow Normans paid for their success dearly. Raymond witnessed on one ship over one hundred Normans, in their heavy armor and cuirasses, run to one end of the ship, sinking it.

The next enemy boat that Raymond boarded was the Greek flagship. He was able to tell by the dual mast lanterns. Fighting through the Byzantine ranks, Raymond came upon the leader of the relief force; it was none other than the wretched Jocelin, the former lord of Molfetta, and current Duke of Corinth. The traitorous Norman exile fled to the Byzantines after his failed rebellions against Duke Robert. He currently was issuing orders to his Greek lackeys, and has his back turned to Raymond. Raymond grabbed his back, and struck him on the face, knocking him unconscious. Raymond proceeded to drag the leader of the soon to be failed expedition back to Roger’s ship. The Norman lord grinned widely, saying “Good, my Flemish brother, good,”

Weeks later, the demoralized city of Bari surrendered to Guiscard after such a crushing blow. Raymond would latter say he learned two very valuable things form the months besieging the city; the usefulness of a navy, and mercy in triumph.
Never trust a Greek bearing gifts.

-Proverb

Kastoria, April 1082
Robert stared across the Macedonian plain, pondering the coming campaign. He had once wished to seize the glory and splendor of
Constantinople, but the corpulent ambassador from Alexius had convinced him that there was a greater prize to be had. His inner-Norman loved the sheer gall of a surprise attack. The Caliph would never expect legions of Franks charging down the Nile, paid for by Byzantine coin, and supported by Byzantine and Venetian ships.

The ink had barely dried on the treaty parchment when the Duke began to make preparations. The fifteen thousand or-so men under his command might be enough to best a host of effeminate Greeks, but to take
Egypt from the Saracens would require a much larger army. For that reason, he had dispatched Bohemond and Count Raymond back across the Adriatic to gather more men to the cause. He instructed Raymond to travel through Italy to recruit Lombards, and sent Bohemond to southern France The Duke himself would stay in Kastoria, hiring Greek and Slav mercenaries.

To maintain the Greek and of the bargain, something that was quite difficult to achieve due to their lack of trustworthiness, Guiscard would leave garrisons at Kastoria and
Dyrrhachium.

Indeed, like the light shining from the great lighthouse at Alexandria, the future seemed bright for the Duke of Apulia.

Outside of Toulouse, June 1082

“It is agreed then,” said Bohemond de Hauteville “You will finance the contingent of knights form Toulouse, in return for trading rights and privileges in Alexandria and Damietta,”

“True, and may the soldiers of Christ prevail over heathen and heretic,” replied William, the Count of Toulouse. Bohemond smirked inwardly at that assertion. It was doubtful that it was solely religious fervor that motivated the Count to endorse the expedition, especially considering that he would get to play landlord when his knights departed.

Bohemond was quite glad that the Count decided to stay in France, and not to go to the Nile delta on their little venture, despite William’s attempts at saying otherwise. His father Robert could give some feeble Tolosan knight some backwater village to run, but a Count would demand title, land and money, none of which father would be willing to part with easily.

With the formalities dealt with, the Count offered Bohemund a tour of the estate, which the Norman giant accepted. The lands around the manner were quite beautiful, but Bohemond would always prefer the orchards and mountains of Apulia to that of the home of his ancestors. [1]

Bohemond was telling the Count of his adventures during the campaign against the Greeks when he stopped suddenly. He nearly made the sign of the cross, as the vision of beauty standing before them could be nothing less than one of God’s angels.

“Ah, lady Eleanor. Has something delayed your departure back to Albi?” inquired the Count.

“Yes, your whores. My guards are making fools of themselves in front of your court wenches, again,” Spat back the lady angrily. Something in her tone of voice told Bohemond that she was referring to members of the counts family, and that this contention had arisen before.

“Do you know no end, woman?!” barked the Count. Lady Eleanor smirked.

The count calmed, wishing not to embarrass himself in front of the Norman. Bohemond did not care the least about what the count wished; He was in rapture gazing at the creature before him.

“Lady Eleanor, this is the son of the Duke of Apulia, Bohemond. Surely, you must have heard of his success against the Greek heretics,”

“Indeed,” tersely said the lady. She paused a moment before adding “Do you speak not because you are ill in the mind, or were you made mute by the parting of you and your tongue by a Saracen?”

Bohemond was taken aback at her wit. His towering height usually meant that not many would say such things to him. But while the count beside him fumed over her frankly insulting manner and insubordination, Bohemond found it enchanting.

Bohemond grinned widely, which seemed to throw the lady off.

“I beg your pardon, madam. In a great book, it was once written that a word is worth one coin, while silence is worth two. If you will excuse us, the count and I must be off. It of great pleasure to meet you,”

With a curt nod, the lady continued looking for her fornicating guards.

“God help and protect me in dealing with that defiant woman,” lamented the clearly frustrated Count “He late husband had amassed large estates outside of Albi when he died. They produced no heirs, thus she came into ownership of the property. Since then, she has refused to remarry, complaining that all of the honorable lords I present would be incapable of protecting her from the likes of me. I simply wish to get my fee, and restart normal taxing and levying, but she has the clergy on a string, and they won’t bless a marriage without her approval,” finished the Count

“She is a very well traveled woman, you know,” the Count added “She’s been amongst the Moors of Spain and Africa, rumors have it,” The warm feeling in Bohemond's cheeks grew

“My most honorable Count, I believe we have something else to discuss before lady Eleanor departs,” Bohemond said with a grin.


[1] Using ‘home’ very loosely here. Both Normandy and Toulouse are in France.
 

Thande

Donor
Maybe you could get an ordinary blank map and then put on the cities by hand? Probably be easier to find a noneditable sourcemap of Egypt in that era.

EDIT: This has got a few more: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~rs143/sultan.jpg but unfortunately it seems rather hard to find a map of Egypt for any time between Cleopatra and Napoleon :rolleyes:
 
There is a possibility that the crusaders will learn from the Normans in Egypt and Sicily, and enforce a similar toleration in their states. This could lead to some longer-lasting Crusader states.

It sure would; actually, though just the presence of the Norman Kingdom of Egypt would be enough to insure the long term survival of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the other Levantine Crusader States. If the Mongol invasion still happens,Muslim invasion of Palestine and Syria is cut off from the east, and Norman Egypt keeps anything hostile coming from the West... its really a winning combination as far as the Crusaders are concerned.

Oh, and nice TL, by the way.
 
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Thande

Donor
It sure would; actually, though just the presence of the Norman Kingdom of Egypt would be enough to insure a the long term survival of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the other Lavantine Crusader States. If the Mongol invasion still happens,Muslim invasion of Palestine and Syria is cut off from the east, and Norman Egypt keeps anything hostile coming from the West... its really a winning combination as far as the Crusaders are concerned.
Agree with one proviso: that assumes the Normans are able to beat the Mongols as the Mamelukes did in OTL.
 
Maybe you could get an ordinary blank map and then put on the cities by hand? Probably be easier to find a noneditable sourcemap of Egypt in that era.
Well, what I'm looking for are the cities that the Normans would take on a month-to-month basis. If I started the conquest at Alexandria, and ended it in Aswan with nothing in between, it would suck (more than it does currently).
It sure would; actually, though just the presence of the Norman Kingdom of Egypt would be enough to insure the long term survival of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the other Lavantine Crusader States. If the Mongol invasion still happens,Muslim invasion of Palestine and Syria is cut off from the east, and Norman Egypt keeps anything hostile coming from the West... its really a winning combination as far as the Crusaders are concerned.

Oh, and nice TL, by the way.
The Muslims are going to be pinned down pretty badly ITTL. By the 1300's they'll have lost Egypt, Levant, and North Africa to the Normans, Persia and Mesopotamia to the (Nestorian) Mongols. This leaves them a rump Arabia, bits of India, and the gold-salt trading kingdoms in Africa. (Someone please tell me if there are any major errors in this line of thought)

Agree with one proviso: that assumes the Normans are able to beat the Mongols as the Mamelukes did in OTL.
Considering their track record in England and Italy, they were pretty damn adept at war. Besides, Egypt isn't that accessible to a Mongol horde, for reasons that AHP brought up in one thread or another.
 
Necromancy? :confused:

I need a map of Egypt (w/ major cities) to revise part two...

It's not much, but this map might suffice.

To my knowledge, all of the major cities that are shown on this map existed during the Medieval Ages, except for Port Said and Suez, and I'm not sure about Ismailia.

And if you're not sure, then just Google the names of those cities.

Akhmim.jpg
 
Jumping ahead a bit, as I've reached a writer's block (some of this incorporates some of my previous writing, and that of Alexander of Telese).


Palermo, 1167

Alexander of Tropea dipped his quill into the ink, and resumed writing the manuscript

“With so many successes achieved, all the lands Apulia and the whole duchy in his power, the Prince of the Capuans, the Magister Militum of Naples and all the land up to the borders of the city of Ancona subject to him, and his opponents in war and strife subdued, those close to Duke Simon, and particularly his uncle Count Henry of Vasto by whom he was loved more than anyone, began very frequently to suggest to him the plan that he, who with the help of God ruled so many provinces, Sicily, Calabria, Apulia and other regions stretching almost to Rome, ought not to have just the ducal title but ought to be distinguished by the honour of kingship.”

He wrote in close Latin script, with perfect spelling and grammar. No paper could be wasted. The process of producing paper had been imported from Spain several years ago. Despite the preciousness of the material, the industry for creating it was booming. Moorish experts from Spain had been brought over to found the mills, and Italians from Ancona (the conquest of which had been conducted under the reign of Simon I) were being imported to make dipping moulds and watermarks. Though the recipe for ink varied from place to place, there was relatively large quantity available to Alexander. He continued writing

“They added that the centre and capital of this kingdom ought to be Palermo, the chief city of Sicily, which once, in ancient times, was believed to have had kings [who ruled] over this province; but now, many years later, was by God's secret judgement without them.”

He glanced out the window into the heart of Palermo, a metropolis, capitol, and home to some three hundred thousand Sicilians. When Simon came into power, the residents of the city were not Sicilians. They were Catholics, Greeks, Jews, Saracens. When he left, he left a city of Sicilians.

He saw the steam rising from a group of forges, where blacksmiths were pounding away, making swords and spears for one of the many Royal arsenals. He saw some Saracen scholars of his court strolling up to the palace gate, discussing a section of al-Haytham’s Book of Optics. From his view in his tower of the royal palace were several administrative offices ringing the complex. Inside Greek and Saracen bureaucrats would be arguing over taxes and levies. Palermo was a city of Genoese merchants, and Norman knights; Saracen Imans and Latin Bishops. Jew and Saracen, Latin and Greek; Sicilians all, and all lived together in peace and respect, under the dutiful watch of Simon the Younger and his advisors.

Feeling cooped up in the hot attic of his tower, he decided to go on a stroll throughout the palace grounds. Unlike the poor monkish scribes in Northern Europe, sitting in their empty stone monasteries, full of hunger and cold, Alexander enjoyed some privileges as the official royal chronographer.
He admired the marble colonnades and the shimmering of the water as it trickled down fountains. The smell of lemon groves wafted through the courtyard as he walked through it. In the distance he could see the king’s younger brother Robert and his group of Greek and Muslim tutors. The adolescent was becoming just like his father and brother; quite the Cosmopolitan, speaking in rapid Greek and wearing the finest silks from the orient. After greeting the prince, he went back to his tower to give him a better view of the capitol.

Off in the distance, he could see some Greek shipwrights repairing a galley for the Emir of Palermo, Tiberias of Messina. In addition to his first and foremost task of managing the vibrant capital and trade center, he was also in charge of the maintaining and commanding the Royal Navy. But the king’s judgement was trusted; Tiberias was the right man for the job, as evidenced by the plunder he brought back from his most recent raid against the Pisans.

Indeed, Palermo was in good hands. Despite the few years of peace, he knew that war would return. Whether from the Germans in the North, the Greeks from the East, orthe Muslims from the South, war would return to the Regno. He placed his confidence in Simon II, and continued his writing.
 
I was actually about to post in this thread asking for an update, good to see I was preempted. I liked the description of Palermo... and I wonder who the war will be with. :eek:
 
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