Non - Prussian Dominated German Empire

[Mikestone8]

Maybe Saxony gains Silesia in the 18 century,

It could even have taken over *Austria*.

In 1719 Emperor Charles VI compelled his nieces Maria Josefa and Maria Amelia to renounce theirr rights of succession in favour of the infant maria Theresa.

OTLhe lived another 20 years, so that MT was grown up when he dies, and the rule change stuck. But WI he died c 1720 and his 3yo daughter was passed over in favour of her adult and married aunt - who was married to theElectoral Prince of Saxony? A combined Austro-Saxon state might be strong enough to keep Prussia in its place.

 

[GenghisKhanfan]

It is possible for several German states to have several decades of successful foreign and domestic policies to become able to challenge Austria.

Maybe Saxony gains Silesia in the 18 century, enabling a more permanent personal union to become a European Power.

Bavaria managed to become German Emperor for a few years in the 18. century. If they might get more foreign support, they might maintain that title? Also if they somehow enlarge their territory (for example gaining Ansbach-Bayreuth) they could have better chances.
Also an earlier unification of the Palatinate with Bavaria would massively increase their power.

I don't really see a path for Hannover.

Württemberg could maybe get a more important role, but I don't see them dominating Germany.

I disagree.
Hannover was in a personal union with the United Kingdom. This gave them additional resources they could've drawn from if they had chosen to make German unification their main mission. The only serious opposition they would've faced was, on the one hand Prussia, and on the other the Hapsburg monarchy, With the Royal Navy to defend them from possible Danish or Swedish attack, Hannover could've begun bringing the surrounding small states into union, then challenged Prussia for supremacy in northern Germany, with the possible result that a North German Federation might've been created incorporating Hannover, those parts of Prussia not directly annexed, and the other small states. Then its only a matter of either going against Austria or France as a way to bring the southern German states into the union.

Bavaria only managed to attain the title of Holy Roman Emperor because they had seized Bohemia, but if they did that again, and also acquired Ansbach-Bayreuth and the Palatinate, they could win and hold that title again and translate it into a German Empire.

Personally, I don't see how Saxony or Wurttemberg could unify Germany. In Saxony's case, their main concern would be in linking the electoral core territory with the PLC and hence enlarge their dominion. Its doubtful the Poles would welcome a united Germany on their doorstep even if the ruling family came from Saxony, although a personal union of the German Empire and the PLC would be the largest empire in Europe and likely frighten Austria (or what might remain of it), Russia, and France.
Wurttemberg would have to enlarge its territory enough to become a serious contender against both Prussia and Austria and its likely Bavaria, Baden, Austria and potentially even France would work to prevent that from happening.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Separating Hungary and Austria is probably a decent way for it to happen too

Pretty hard to actually do this without killing Austria in its crib as owning Hungary was part of what allowed it to build its strength such that it eventually dominated the HRE.

1848 is not much a suitable pod as the Hungarian Revolution was pretty much doomed from the start. The other great powers did not want' the balance of power to be disrupted in such a fashion, and Hungary own ethnic minorities supported the Habsburgs.

The Habsburgs aren't really going to give up dominion over what it sees as its rightful territory either. Though an earlier Austro-Prussian War over the fate of the German Confederation might see Austria here unite the rest of Germany. Though Hungary would likely be granted some sort of dominion status as it would be in a personal union with the Imperial throne. But tbh, I think the more likely outcome is that Austria tries to regain Silesia, enlarge saxony, and then assert its own hegemony over Germany keeping Germany a loose Confederation of states that it could have economic and political influence over.

Though a pod where the HRE actually isn't dissolved would prevent the formation of the Austrian Empire as that was largely in response to Napoleon's title elevation. If say the French Revolution doesn't occur and the Bourbons keep the throne, Austria would very likely go on to use the HRE as a vehicle for German unification with the new Empire being called the HRE of the German Nation.

 

[Zurirach Adankar]

I think Hannover lacks the industry and population. Most areas are rural.

Also an expansionist Hannover would concern France and Prussia and maybe several other powers. Because they wouldn't like Britain gaining dominance over large parts of Germany.

In a war against Prussia Hannover would have to defend itself on two frontlines. The Royal Navy couldn't prevent their defeat.

Also why would the British government and parliament be ready to waste massive amounts of ressources for such a conflict?

 

[Cymry-Korean]

I think Hannover lacks the industry and population. Most areas are rural.

Also an expansionist Hannover would concern France and Prussia and maybe several other powers. Because they wouldn't like Britain gaining dominance over large parts of Germany.

In a war against Prussia Hannover would have to defend itself on two frontlines. The Royal Navy couldn't prevent their defeat.

Also why would the British government and parliament be ready to waste massive amounts of ressources for such a conflict?

Indeed. The German Kings of Britain cared about Hannover. The British parliament much less so.

 

[Whanztastic]

Prussia was rather rural too, in the east, but consolidating Silesia the Rhineland helped them gain modern dominance. A different state who expanded in either region at Prussia’s expense would be better placed.

Not sure if I saw this earlier in the thread, but a common POD is 1848 could’ve seen a more unified and multipolar German Confederation, with Prussia as a primary player but not totally dominant like OTL.

 

[GenghisKhanfan]

I think Hannover lacks the industry and population. Most areas are rural.

Also an expansionist Hannover would concern France and Prussia and maybe several other powers. Because they wouldn't like Britain gaining dominance over large parts of Germany.

In a war against Prussia Hannover would have to defend itself on two frontlines. The Royal Navy couldn't prevent their defeat.

Also why would the British government and parliament be ready to waste massive amounts of ressources for such a conflict?

Personal Union
Though you have a point that public opinion and the mercantile interest would have to be considered.
I do wonder how you figure Hannover being in a two-front war when you only mentioned Prussia?
And how would France feel threatened by a union-minded Hannover? For them it would likely be a Godsend because it would divert Prussia from their exact same mission and potentially drag Britain in, which would open some doors for French expansion either in the Low Countries or overseas

 

[PGSBHurricane]

I think the easiest way to have this done is for the Frankfurt Conference to successfully establish a Germany with a liberal Constitutional Monarchy in 1848 and have one of the Austrian Habsburgs accept the throne.

 

[Nivek]

Indeed. The German Kings of Britain cared about Hannover. The British parliament much less so.

Excatly, have the brit would have been off-load Hannover early they would have loved it, for them Hannover was a waste

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

I think the easiest way to have this done is for the Frankfurt Conference to successfully establish a Germany with a liberal Constitutional Monarchy in 1848 and have one of the Austrian Habsburgs accept the throne.

The problem with Frankfurt is that it didn't have much legitimacy. There were of plenty of small, but regional powers within Germany that opposed outright unification wanting to protect their sovereignty as a state. In Bavaria despite the Revolution, the Conservative staged a counteroffensive and quite swiftly took power.

The Austrians wouldn't accept the loss of their Eastern possesions and made it clear that they would accept a situation where all their now "indivisible" territories of the Austrian Empire would join this German Empire. This of course was unacceptable to the German nationalists. Austria also favored a return to the previous status-quo where a confederation was kept but under Austrian leadership.

Austria and Prussia however almost went to war in 1850 over this issue of who would lead Germany. Though then Russia was leaning towards Austria as were other smaller German states.

Germany with a liberal Constitutional Monarchy in 1848

The Parliament was quite chaotic and divided itself, and tbh the final nail in the coffin was Prussia's refusal which saw it crash and burn.

 

[Aghasverov]

Have to go back before 1848, or even 1815...
Rheinbund.
Keep both the Prussians and Austrians out

 

[Nivek]

Rheinbund.

It happened, is under prussia control

 

[Aghasverov]

It happened, is under prussia control

Hey, Nivek! Haven't seen you in a while...
Yes, happened, but wouldn't necessarily have...

 

[kham_coc]

Have to go back before 1848, or even 1815...
Rheinbund.
Keep both the Prussians and Austrians out

I mean that's another possibility - let's have a confederation of the rhine on steroids, with all non Prussian and non Austrian Germany, presumably under a bavarian, that manages to survive 1815?

 

[Aghasverov]

I mean that's another possibility - let's have a confederation of the rhine on steroids, with all non Prussian and non Austrian Germany, presumably under a bavarian, that manages to survive 1815?

I wouldn't think a Bavarian though, would be placing too much power into the hands of one already-strong Kingdom.... before 1815, would've been under von Dalberg until his death (1817) and then to de Beauharnais.... would've required a substantially different (or non-existent) Congress of Vienna

 

[kham_coc]

I wouldn't think a Bavarian though, would be placing too much power into the hands of one already-strong Kingdom.... before 1815, would've been under von Dalberg until his death (1817) and then to de Beauharnais.... would've required a substantially different (or non-existent) Congress of Vienna

well all of Germany minus Austria, Prussia and Bavaria wouldn't really be Germany.
So the PoD would be, something like, Bavaria allies with Nappy, is rewarded with all of Germany, (minus Prussia and Austria) and then somehow survives congress of Vienna.
It would fulfill British desires, and is not really that much weirder than giving Prussia the Rhenland.

 

[Nivek]

well all of Germany minus Austria, Prussia and Bavaria wouldn't really be Germany.
So the PoD would be, something like, Bavaria allies with Nappy, is rewarded with all of Germany, (minus Prussia and Austria) and then somehow survives congress of Vienna.
It would fulfill British desires, and is not really that much weirder than giving Prussia the Rhenland.

Prussia wasn't give rhineland because it. It was given it because prussia post reform was able to pack a punch against france and was needed to keep it quiet, originally was given belgium

 

[Curtain Jerker]

Don't give them the Rhine at Vienna, since it pulled them west and north Germany fell right into their lap.

This is the big one for me. Not only did it pull Prussia westward as you rightly claimed it also gave them tons of extra tax revenue.

A Prussia not on the Rhine looks eastward and there's probably a three-way dance between Alt-Prussia, Austria, and Russia where each angles for land and power at the expense of the other two.

 

[Aghasverov]

well all of Germany minus Austria, Prussia and Bavaria wouldn't really be Germany.
So the PoD would be, something like, Bavaria allies with Nappy, is rewarded with all of Germany, (minus Prussia and Austria) and then somehow survives congress of Vienna.
It would fulfill British desires, and is not really that much weirder than giving Prussia the Rhenland.

Oh, I think Bavaria would be in the Bund, but just not with the hereditary position of Emperor/Reichspraesident/whatever-the-position-would-be-called.
Nap's Rheinbund was divided into a "College of Kings" comprised of the Kings and Grand Dukes, and a "College of Princes", comprised of Dukes and below.... Maybe hark back to the old HRE and have a sort of elective leader, but rotated periodically among the College of Kings (there were nine of them I believe) and voted on by delegates of the two colleges together....

 

[Nivek]

Oh, I think Bavaria would be in the Bund, but just not with the hereditary position of Emperor/Reichspraesident/whatever-the-position-would-be-called.
Nap's Rheinbund was divided into a "College of Kings" comprised of the Kings and Grand Dukes, and a "College of Princes", comprised of Dukes and below.... Maybe hark back to the old HRE and have a sort of elective leader, but rotated periodically among the College of Kings (there were nine of them I believe) and voted on by delegates of the two colleges together....

No one is bringing that back at all anymore, if anything just a bund like the north german one was