That photo of the Sabre Fury can never be shown too often, though a Griffon might be more reliable
No Spitfire
- Thread starter Gingerdave
- Start date
McPherson
Banned
Perhaps an earlier version of this with a Griffon engine?
I had to refresh my memory. Too late and with substantial war learned and hard earned aeronautical science to gain for her, her "beauty". Jets overtook her.
That photo of the Sabre Fury can never be shown too often, though a Griffon might be more reliable
Some more Hawker Fury porn
While I understand the focus on the BoB, I have to point out, Spitfire service did not end at the start of 1941.
So, what happens to the CAM ships? Do they use Hotspurs or something, instead?
Is there a prospect for Canada to restart production of the FF-1 (Goblin)? Or developing a "monoplane Goblin"? (IMO, those are long & longer odds...)
What gets sent to Singapore? (I presume Hurricanes, which end up shot to bits thanks to poor tactics, just like Spits OTL.)
Edit:
So, what happens to the CAM ships? Do they use Hotspurs or something, instead?
Is there a prospect for Canada to restart production of the FF-1 (Goblin)? Or developing a "monoplane Goblin"? (IMO, those are long & longer odds...)
What gets sent to Singapore? (I presume Hurricanes, which end up shot to bits thanks to poor tactics, just like Spits OTL.)
Edit:
I'd agree that's desireable, but is it essential? Given the Hurricane can carry the load through the BoB.
Oz. I'm not sure Canada was (yet) much more than a maintenance center.
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Lack of a Seafire would force the RN to focus faster on the Corsair and Hellcats; as for operation Torch, I'm guessing more navalized Hurricanes and/or a much larger number of Wildcats.
Has anyone mentioned Malta? Afaik, several dozen Spits were sent there in 41/42. What would the RAF sent instead?
Has anyone mentioned Malta? Afaik, several dozen Spits were sent there in 41/42. What would the RAF sent instead?
Cam ships used Hurricanes - so Hurricanes - no change here I would not have thought?
Spits never went to Singapore - it was Hurricane and Buffalo - so again all other things being equal - no change here?
As for Spitfire replacement by what I mean is what is built instead and supplied to FC for Sqn service starting late 39 - this could simply be 'more Hurricanes'
McPherson
Banned
You know something? I've gone through the whole litany of possible British, French and American aircraft and I've come to the conclusion, that given the realistic PoDs available (Go away ASBs) aside from the Wildcat or a heavily modified British twin engine job (Whirlwind or Beaufighter) or possibly the Dewoitine DW 520, there is nothing produceable in quantity in time for the BoB besides Hurricanes and Spitfires.
As a side note, I previously mentioned that Curtiss Aircraft screwed up royally in its development of the P-40 which had the correct decisions been made as regards to high altitude performance just might have been ready for post BoB work in the Rhubarbs over France. The XP-60 with the Pratt R-2800 was a promise of what could have been, but because of massive bungling was 2 years and a botched wing chord NACA selection too late.
As a side note, I previously mentioned that Curtiss Aircraft screwed up royally in its development of the P-40 which had the correct decisions been made as regards to high altitude performance just might have been ready for post BoB work in the Rhubarbs over France. The XP-60 with the Pratt R-2800 was a promise of what could have been, but because of massive bungling was 2 years and a botched wing chord NACA selection too late.
I have found, over the years, some (very small) references to a so-called slim (or sports?!) version of the Beaufighter, supposedly called type 158, proposed around 1939/40, with diferent engines and a thinner, more steamlined fuselage. Never found any substantial data (not even if it was a sngle or 2 seater) but I imagine a beefed up Whirlwind...
I have also read about this but I believe the biggest drag problem with the Beaufighter was the thick wing.
With no Spitfire, might Martin-Baker go for MB2.5 - an MB2 with retractable u/c and Merlin power?
According to Wiki, "...A retractable undercarriage to improve performance was "in the works" when the design was abandoned..."
A report in The Aeroplane stated that, "...in spite of its fixed undercarriage, the MB2 had a performance as good as that of contemporary fighters and a capacity for quick and cheap production by the simplicity of its structure and easy assembly. Repair and maintenance were also simple, and these factors might have influenced the authorities towards putting the MB2 into production when the country's fighter strength was disproportionately low..."
According to Wiki, "...A retractable undercarriage to improve performance was "in the works" when the design was abandoned..."
A report in The Aeroplane stated that, "...in spite of its fixed undercarriage, the MB2 had a performance as good as that of contemporary fighters and a capacity for quick and cheap production by the simplicity of its structure and easy assembly. Repair and maintenance were also simple, and these factors might have influenced the authorities towards putting the MB2 into production when the country's fighter strength was disproportionately low..."
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Time is the issue. The Typhoon/Tornado was supposed to replace both the Hurricane and Spitfire. In 1941 they found that it (despite other virtues) could not with that thick wing and limited engines. What you need is something you can then build to get into service in 1942 to match or outperform the FW190 and then later 109s. The Tornado/Typhoon process began in 1937 before the Hurricane was even in service. With no Spitfire there would be just the Hurricane but even more factories making it. The only instant(ish) solution is to drag even more performance out of the Hurricane structure for which you already have the factories in production. That will (poorly but adequately) cover the gap until late 1943 by which time you need something else. I love the Whirlwind but the Tempest contract was in November 1941 so the simplest solution is an accelerated Tempest programme using both Sabres and Griffons. IOTL the Tempest was in squadron service by mid 1944. If we can get that done a year earlier and all the factories go over to Tempest from Super Hurricanes then the Tempest can be the standard RAF fighter in Europe. Super Hurricanes serving elsewhere and in other roles.
I love the Whirlwind and it's development potential could see it evolve from 1941 to take over the entire fighter role until the end of the war but the above is closer to OTL.
Of course the real outlier is to accelerate jet development and get Vampires and Meteors into service in early 1944 and general service by late 1945.
So there you are. 3 options; based upon OTL, cool and irrationally bold.
The Tempest is a known OTL quantity however, what can we do to the Hurricane to cover the gap? Presumably 2 stage Merlins and Griffons.
I love the Whirlwind and it's development potential could see it evolve from 1941 to take over the entire fighter role until the end of the war but the above is closer to OTL.
Of course the real outlier is to accelerate jet development and get Vampires and Meteors into service in early 1944 and general service by late 1945.
So there you are. 3 options; based upon OTL, cool and irrationally bold.
The Tempest is a known OTL quantity however, what can we do to the Hurricane to cover the gap? Presumably 2 stage Merlins and Griffons.
When Martin of MB aircraft started on the MB 2 OTL he wanted to use a merlin engine but none were available at that time, perhaps if there is no spitfire the AM would arrange for MB to have a merlin. In that case ITTL the MB2 might be more competitive and worth developing. The design by Martin was noted for it's ease of construction and the good cockpit visibility and layout. so think of a merlin powered aircraft somewhere between the MB2 and MB3 in squadron service by 1939.
McPherson
Banned
Yep lot of it about
To be fair the power-egg (Bearcat) was about all Grumman stole from Kurt Tank. They already had their air frame set...
Just slap a bubble canopy on it and lighten it up a bit.
I had the sense Hurricanes were used (in part, anyhow) because there were enough Spits for it not to matter if Hurris were lost. That not being true...
Maybe I'm thinking Burma or India...
(I'd've sworn there were Spits in Malaya.)I had the sense Hurricanes were used (in part, anyhow) because there were enough Spits for it not to matter if Hurris were lost. That not being true...
Maybe I'm thinking Burma or India...
Spitfires were not deployed outside the home islands until March 1942 when they went to Malta.
I had the sense Hurricanes were used (in part, anyhow) because there were enough Spits for it not to matter if Hurris were lost. That not being true...
Maybe I'm thinking Burma or India...
No Spits in Malaya during WW2! Pretty much no Spits outside of the UK and Malta until mid/late 42!
If no Spits then it would be replaced with Aircraft X (whatever ac replaced Spitfire in this hateful ATL) or more Hurricanes - and they used older Mk1A hurricanes so again they were surplus to front line requirements at the time that the CAM units were formed