Shadow Master
Banned
I don't know where the spitfires didn't serve in the PTO, but they did go one on one with the model 32 over Darwin and New Guinea. I was shocked to learn that the Hurricane actually killed more 109's than the spitfires!
No Spitfire
- Thread starter Gingerdave
- Start date
McPherson
Banned
457 Squadron RAAF
and as the article states:
Short version: the pilots had to learn a different style of fighting and forget about dogfighting as they learned it in the BoB. The ground crews were severely handicapped by parts shortages and the northern Australian climate. A whole host of factors meant a different war for the Spitfires in the Northern territories. The learning curve was incredibly steep with the IJN and especially the IJA being very harsh teachers. As always, it is the human (and some material) factors that explain the differences between GB and Australia. Always bear that in mind when one compares the performance of the RAAF Spitfire squadrons and the RAF, too, with the China War Japanese veterans. The Japanese were used to and ready for the conditions encountered. The Australians and British, like the Americans, had to spend a good two years to catch on and catch up. When they did, they showed they could give better than they got.
Hurricane was 'mature' in full operational service and in full production during the summer of 1940 - Spitfire had only just reached double figure production in early 1940 and was only just reaching maturity at the start of the BoB
Castle Bromwich Assembly only started delivering at the height of the battle and Supermarines Woolston plant got bombed in Sept 1940 and was so badly damaged that its subsequent contribution to the war effort was its use in training commandos in Street fighting.
But it was only by late 1940 that Spitfire numbers exceeded that of Hurricanes and only in 41 that Fighter command replaced Hurricane.
British Fighter production numbers during the period 6 April - 2 Nov 1940
Total FC strength breakdown - July and total Establishment during period Jun-Dec 1940
The delay in Spitfire Production was due to its more complicated construction relative to Hurricane (resulting in some issues at Castle Bromwich which among other reasons delayed full production) so in a ATL where there is no Spitfire it is likely that increased production of Hurricane instead would result in more aircraft being built overall during the same period and therefore a increased establishment earlier than OTL
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
Spit painted up as a Darwin defender - looking more lived in than my photos from a few years ago
Grey Nurse scramble by Errol Cavit, on FlickrKeep in mind that deploying Spitfires to Darwin was not all that necessary. Once the USAAF and then RAAF P-40 squadrons got a handle on things, they more than took their measure of the Japanese and would have continued to do so since the aircraft the Japanese sending against Darwin did not change. Additionally, once the Spitfires got there and were operational, the period of danger was long past. There was a heavy does of symbolism involved because it showed London's willingness to send three squadrons of its best fighter, one of which was a RAF squadron to defend Australia at a time when relations between London and Canberra were not great.
Methinks that we agree that Uk will have good & great fighters by early 1943 at least. The problem is: who is to cover years of 1941 and 1942? My picks, again:
- 1-seat Defiant with better radiators (not that awful 'airbrake-type' radiators) and wing guns
- Gloster F.5/34 with Merlin
- Whirlwing as improved as it gets
- Merlinized P-40 and/or MB.2 and/or Mustang and/or Gloster F.9/37
Or some, less that obvious - 1-engined fighter with Hercules on board; D-H gets a job; Percival gets a job; Hurricane with wings from Gloster F.5; jet fighter??
- 1-seat Defiant with better radiators (not that awful 'airbrake-type' radiators) and wing guns
- Gloster F.5/34 with Merlin
- Whirlwing as improved as it gets
- Merlinized P-40 and/or MB.2 and/or Mustang and/or Gloster F.9/37
Or some, less that obvious - 1-engined fighter with Hercules on board; D-H gets a job; Percival gets a job; Hurricane with wings from Gloster F.5; jet fighter??
Mark1878
Donor
Supermarine and its parent vickers would produce a fighter. Design was not down to one man. I suspect the only irreplaceable person here is Dowding.
The more I read up on the MB2 - simple build, designed for possible dispersed production of parts, ease of maintenance* - the better it sounds. Assuming no Spitfire and a push for a second fighter design, could Martin-Baker advance the design of a Merlin powered MB2 with retractable u/c? Absent the Spitfire, Merlins should be available. How much speed would this gain over the fixed spats of the original? Contract Vickers to build? And could this lead through to operational MB3's and MB5's?
*From http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1939/1939 - 1708.html and http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1952/1952 - 3599.html
*From http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1939/1939 - 1708.html and http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1952/1952 - 3599.html
I think, for the sake of development speed, the 1-seat Defiant would win. It would be a lot simpler to close up it's rear cockpit and replace the radiators than it would be to reengine another fighter. Much as I love it, the Whirwind would suffer the same problems, because of the engine; and the fighter was too small to simply slap Merlins on it.
edit: clarification.
edit: clarification.
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Quite the contrary. Whilst it took some thought and care as the carburettors and undercarriage wanted to use the same space, Westland did tell the Air Ministry that Merlins could be fitted. Also Allisons.
My money goes on the Hawker Tornado being pushed harder... ready for production late '39 in limited service May/June '40. Eight squadrons available for the BoB and possible knock on of Tempest and Fury each appearing a year or so earlier than OTL.
The AM was quite keen on a twin engined fighter (the Beaufighter) in 1938.
Might we have seen a merlin-powered Gloster Reaper instead of the Spitfire?
Might we have seen a merlin-powered Gloster Reaper instead of the Spitfire?
With Bristol's problems with the Hercules, without the spitfire perhaps there could be an earlier merlin powered Beaufighter?
It would still have a thick wing and not be able to take on first-line fighters.
That's why I was thinking of the Reaper, give it a couple of merlins and it will be in the 400mph range pretty easily. And apparently it was very manouverable for a twin engines fighter.
I'm Good with that one! I always liked the idea of De Haviland being asked to make a fighter version of the DH88 scaled up to use twin Kestrels in late 1935. The AM did purchase and test the DH88 'Grosvenor House' so their could be a viable pod there if there is no Spitfire.
Agree pretty much.
Supermarine did have had racing pedigree, and probably were aware of shortcomings of the Type 224 due to whom the aircraft fell well short vs. projected performance figures (even biplanes were faster). Combine Mitchel and Shenstone in all of this, and indeed I can see them try very hard to win next AM contract for a fighter.
Trick being - what engine in the front of Tornado of 1940?