Of course there’s also the fact that the British is in a better position to enforce post-partition borders. Which is why I lean toward a smaller Israel and Jerusalem and Bethlehem as a international zone under British control.
No Nazis but continued antisemitism on the European Continent, what happens?
- Thread starter AlexanderDragon
- Start date
Of course there’s also the fact that the British is in a better position to enforce post-partition borders. Which is why I lean toward a smaller Israel and Jerusalem and Bethlehem as a international zone under British control.
So it's going to depend on what happens with the Nazis. If the movement is dead before 1923 and the Beer Hall Putsch, basically you'll just have your regular antisemitism but it won't be to the point of the Holocaust or even close. What I think happens is that more of them move to the US, Canada, Argentina, and even South Africa and Australia, as well as a few heading to Israel though the OTL major increases in the 30's won't be a thing. You might even see more support in the US for kinds of resettlement programs of a sort, though it won't be like say the world depicted in the Yiddish Policeman's Union. While many eastern European Jews are limited due to the 1924 laws in the US, a number of German and western European Jews might still move in.
However, if the Nazis rise but somehow miss out on power, or are not in government, it will still be rough, but it will be more or less like gang violence against them. In fact I could see something where maybe the SA type groups are more into street violence against Jews as well as political enemies, while the Hitler group is more "respectable" and maybe even promotes Zionism as a solution as sick as it sounds. In such a scenario though, its mostly German Jews who emigrate, and mostly to Britain, France and the US, and even the Soviet Union. In such a scenario, I'm guessing you still have some sort of conservative government but the Nazi's are left out. However, I still think a German-Soviet War is looming, though Germany looks more like a savior against bolshevism along with Poland in such a timeline and even plays up its conservative, but still democratic values.
Anyways, my personal scenario is this. Hitler dies in 1923 in the Beer Hall Putsch and while the Nazis continue, they aren't as charismatic, though they still get some support. However, a number of figures who didn't join until later more or less are still conservative figures, but with the Nazi's being more left as Hitler is gone and Ernst Rohm and Gregor Strasser take over, they more or less are grouped with the communists and in 1933 a conservative, pro military, but still democratic government prevails in Germany.
As for the Jews, they still suffer nazi started riots and such as well as the usual antisemitism common before otl 1934 but its quite small compared to what happens. However, with the Nazis forgoing electoral politics after 33, they turn more or less to violence and while supressed, they still have a devoted but small following and get money from Italian fascists and such. An unseen result of this is that Franco loses the Spanish Civil War but another smaller one erupts between Republican Spain and Soviet backed communists who now see them as bourgeoise and against the freedoms they fought for and its in this war that Germany helps, and so Republican Spain stands though with concessions to some conservative forces, though Franco ends up in exile in Italy and even offers himself up to the Vatican to be a military commander but is politely rebuffed by both Pius XI and Pius XII.
Again, with the Jews, many German ones simply move to the Netherlands or France or Britain or commonwealth nations, though there are still restrictions. Some are able to go to the US but not as much, though some decry this as racism though few care. Israel does get some but not as much as in OTL and in the end Germany's Jewish population only falls to about 350,000. Of course while the government isn't officially anti-semitic, there are claims of them supporting bolshevism, but some proclaim loyalty to Germany and this is good enough for everyone but the far right.
Eventually the German government, feeling constrained by issues with the Rhineland, does militarize it, which France protests but a treaty is made allowing it to be militarized, but capping troop levels. There also is encouragement from the government not only to get minorities like Poles and Jews to move, but for ethnic Germans to return home, rather than invading such groups. A tenuous peace remains in Europe though the conservative German government often states how it is against communism and socialism "of all kinds" (thereby lumping in the Nazis with them) and they even form an alliance with Poland and the Baltic states to protect against Soviet aggression.
Peace is kept until Stalin claims that Polish and German troops have crossed the border looking to invade the Ukraine, and thus in 1939, he launches an invasion of Poland and thus a German- Soviet War is started with Germany allied with the baltics, Poland, Finland, with Hungary and the Czech Republic committing troops as well. Italy even looks to send troops and is welcomed into the alliance but more or less uses it to oust what they see as "socialist" governments in the balkans though Italy fails in its Balkan campaigns.
Britain, France and the US stay out of the war, though eventually expansion in Japan threatens Anglo-American-French influence in the Pacific but few want to risk a war with a country also against communism, so instead a treaty is made to allow for a government in China that is more friendly to the Japanese and open to their "investment" and as such Japan is held at bay for a time and eventually joins the War against the Soviets.
Lastly, in regards to the Jews, in Germany if they do leave resettle in western europe, and while Polish and German troops in the civil war do at times commit attrocities against Jews, there are similar cases by Soviet troops and as such the Jews are victims arguably of both sides, and fight on both sides. In the end, Stalin is defeated in the sense that he's pushed out of Poland and its a result much like the Winter War, but it ends with him being disgraced, and replaced by Beria, and the Soviet borders are kept the same. As for Poland, the war torn nation does recieve aid from the west, and many Jews, feeling dispossessed go to either Israel if they didn't run off with the Soviets which a few do. Many do stay though and as of today Poland still has 1 million Jews with Germany having about a half million and Israel having only a population of 3 million, with Jerusalem being split and the territory of Israel being a bit smaller.
However, if the Nazis rise but somehow miss out on power, or are not in government, it will still be rough, but it will be more or less like gang violence against them. In fact I could see something where maybe the SA type groups are more into street violence against Jews as well as political enemies, while the Hitler group is more "respectable" and maybe even promotes Zionism as a solution as sick as it sounds. In such a scenario though, its mostly German Jews who emigrate, and mostly to Britain, France and the US, and even the Soviet Union. In such a scenario, I'm guessing you still have some sort of conservative government but the Nazi's are left out. However, I still think a German-Soviet War is looming, though Germany looks more like a savior against bolshevism along with Poland in such a timeline and even plays up its conservative, but still democratic values.
Anyways, my personal scenario is this. Hitler dies in 1923 in the Beer Hall Putsch and while the Nazis continue, they aren't as charismatic, though they still get some support. However, a number of figures who didn't join until later more or less are still conservative figures, but with the Nazi's being more left as Hitler is gone and Ernst Rohm and Gregor Strasser take over, they more or less are grouped with the communists and in 1933 a conservative, pro military, but still democratic government prevails in Germany.
As for the Jews, they still suffer nazi started riots and such as well as the usual antisemitism common before otl 1934 but its quite small compared to what happens. However, with the Nazis forgoing electoral politics after 33, they turn more or less to violence and while supressed, they still have a devoted but small following and get money from Italian fascists and such. An unseen result of this is that Franco loses the Spanish Civil War but another smaller one erupts between Republican Spain and Soviet backed communists who now see them as bourgeoise and against the freedoms they fought for and its in this war that Germany helps, and so Republican Spain stands though with concessions to some conservative forces, though Franco ends up in exile in Italy and even offers himself up to the Vatican to be a military commander but is politely rebuffed by both Pius XI and Pius XII.
Again, with the Jews, many German ones simply move to the Netherlands or France or Britain or commonwealth nations, though there are still restrictions. Some are able to go to the US but not as much, though some decry this as racism though few care. Israel does get some but not as much as in OTL and in the end Germany's Jewish population only falls to about 350,000. Of course while the government isn't officially anti-semitic, there are claims of them supporting bolshevism, but some proclaim loyalty to Germany and this is good enough for everyone but the far right.
Eventually the German government, feeling constrained by issues with the Rhineland, does militarize it, which France protests but a treaty is made allowing it to be militarized, but capping troop levels. There also is encouragement from the government not only to get minorities like Poles and Jews to move, but for ethnic Germans to return home, rather than invading such groups. A tenuous peace remains in Europe though the conservative German government often states how it is against communism and socialism "of all kinds" (thereby lumping in the Nazis with them) and they even form an alliance with Poland and the Baltic states to protect against Soviet aggression.
Peace is kept until Stalin claims that Polish and German troops have crossed the border looking to invade the Ukraine, and thus in 1939, he launches an invasion of Poland and thus a German- Soviet War is started with Germany allied with the baltics, Poland, Finland, with Hungary and the Czech Republic committing troops as well. Italy even looks to send troops and is welcomed into the alliance but more or less uses it to oust what they see as "socialist" governments in the balkans though Italy fails in its Balkan campaigns.
Britain, France and the US stay out of the war, though eventually expansion in Japan threatens Anglo-American-French influence in the Pacific but few want to risk a war with a country also against communism, so instead a treaty is made to allow for a government in China that is more friendly to the Japanese and open to their "investment" and as such Japan is held at bay for a time and eventually joins the War against the Soviets.
Lastly, in regards to the Jews, in Germany if they do leave resettle in western europe, and while Polish and German troops in the civil war do at times commit attrocities against Jews, there are similar cases by Soviet troops and as such the Jews are victims arguably of both sides, and fight on both sides. In the end, Stalin is defeated in the sense that he's pushed out of Poland and its a result much like the Winter War, but it ends with him being disgraced, and replaced by Beria, and the Soviet borders are kept the same. As for Poland, the war torn nation does recieve aid from the west, and many Jews, feeling dispossessed go to either Israel if they didn't run off with the Soviets which a few do. Many do stay though and as of today Poland still has 1 million Jews with Germany having about a half million and Israel having only a population of 3 million, with Jerusalem being split and the territory of Israel being a bit smaller.
The various partition plans were viewed as creating a base for taking the whole of Palestine at a later date by the Zionist movement. The borders were never viewed as permanent by the Jewish population.
The basis for Israel already existed in the 1930s
They will be until Israel is created in which case they will throw their support behind it.
Just because something is the plan it doesn’t mean it ends up that way, especially if they haven’t OTL victories to prove they can win against their neighbors.
Jews in a world without the Holocaust will have a differnt different perspective on a lot of things. Israel in TTL will very much be Polish Jewish project, and German and “Danubian” Jews will likely support it, but also see it as pretty alien.
Think a No Nazi Europe is a big enough butterfly to stop a 1936 Spanish Civil War/Franco being in charge.
lynxpt
Banned
Remember your posts at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...el-have-existed-without-the-holocaust.547859/. You appear to believe that most Jews were secret Zionists and wanted to take as much land as they could. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
I’ll add my two cents to what others I’ve said by adding that Israel, as it exists, was never an inevitability. Yes, some form of Jewish state in Palestine is likely. But IMO without the mass population migration caused by the Holocaust ITTL it will be smaller and poorer.
That’s not conspiracy theory given the statements and plans of Zionist leadership regarding Palestine.
I pointed out that Jews by and large supported Zionism once Israel came into being.
Not necessary poorer, in fact quite likely richer as Israel will enjoy the benefit of a bigger diaspora and likely greater mass tourism. Plenty of European Jews will go Israel for the hot weather, the beaches and complete dominance of kosher restaurants.
lynxpt
Banned
I disagree, I don't think Israel would have been created without the Nazis and the Holocaust.
lynxpt
Banned
Are you sure about kosher? European Jews would become increasingly secular leading them to care less about kosher.
Zionism probably still happens roughly on schedule. Difference is no wartime exodus is compensated by continued migration by a bigger diaspora, combined with a west more sympathetic to the atl israel.
Remember, no nazi atrocities to serve as a discrediting point for Empire, so collonialism dies harder. That and no US dominance post-bretton . This second is obviously like 90-95% of it since without an interventionist US wanting to pry open various markets to build an anti-soviet coalition, the white man's empries last at least 10-20 more years longer.
Remember, no nazi atrocities to serve as a discrediting point for Empire, so collonialism dies harder. That and no US dominance post-bretton . This second is obviously like 90-95% of it since without an interventionist US wanting to pry open various markets to build an anti-soviet coalition, the white man's empries last at least 10-20 more years longer.
lynxpt
Banned
I struggle to see how the West would be more sympathetic to Israel without the Holocaust. To the contrary, there would be less sympathy.
Why wouldnit it be? You've got 1) more tolerance for empires/imperialism 2) Israel exists to get jews out of europe.
In a context where antisemitism remains socially acceptable a couple generations longer the second is a big boost for Israel's reputation.
The ones who doesn’t care about Kosher takes a vacation in Spain, Greece or Yugoslavia/Croatia, the ones for who their Jewish identity is important goes on vacation in Israel.
Now if we do not look at the implications for a state of Israel, but focus on the Jews living in Europe and in some extend the ones living in the US or South America.....
My idea is that with many European countries passing what are basically Jim Crow laws for their Jewish population, the Jewish fate will become a definite civil rights issue at about three same time the US civil rights movement starts fighting the US Jim Crow laws. Or if not, at the latest it will come when woman's rights becomes an issue and definitely before the gay rights campaigns.
The careers of the likes of Daniel Cohn Bendit in tht German Green Party promise to be a lot more interesting.
My idea is that with many European countries passing what are basically Jim Crow laws for their Jewish population, the Jewish fate will become a definite civil rights issue at about three same time the US civil rights movement starts fighting the US Jim Crow laws. Or if not, at the latest it will come when woman's rights becomes an issue and definitely before the gay rights campaigns.
The careers of the likes of Daniel Cohn Bendit in tht German Green Party promise to be a lot more interesting.