No Nazis but continued antisemitism on the European Continent, what happens?

As has become increasingly known, the early portion of the 20th century saw an increase of antisemitism that was not restricted to Germany. The Nuremberg laws in 1935 were part of a trend(although they defined how it would evolve) of restricting Jews to certain occupations, setting restrictions and promoting their economic debasement. Jews reacted by becoming increasingly separated from normal society. This inevitably led to pressure for emigration, which by the late 1930s had become an unofficial policy of the polish government. It would also be the policy of an non nazi reactionary government.

How would these escalating tensions evolve? Would the Jews be expected to leave and if so, where would they go?
 
The zionist movement had always advocated for the migration of Jews to what would become Israel, and this policy predates the 1930s. As for Poland, the zionist movement literally cooperated with Sanacja to promote the gradual emigration of polish Jews to what would become Israel. And back then, a lot of polish Jews rejected these zionist slogans.
 

Garrison

Donor
As has become increasingly known, the early portion of the 20th century saw an increase of antisemitism that was not restricted to Germany. The Nuremberg laws in 1935 were part of a trend(although they defined how it would evolve) of restricting Jews to certain occupations, setting restrictions and promoting their economic debasement. Jews reacted by becoming increasingly separated from normal society. This inevitably led to pressure for emigration, which by the late 1930s had become an unofficial policy of the polish government. It would also be the policy of an non nazi reactionary government.

How would these escalating tensions evolve? Would the Jews be expected to leave and if so, where would they go?
With no Nazis its just another round in the cycle of antisemitism. It would peak and die down again at some point, I can't see a large scale exodus without something akin to the Holocaust. Also without the Holocaust there is going to be even less sympathy for Zionists stirring up trouble in Palestine than there was IOTL.
 
With no Nazis its just another round in the cycle of antisemitism. It would peak and die down again at some point, I can't see a large scale exodus without something akin to the Holocaust. Also without the Holocaust there is going to be even less sympathy for Zionists stirring up trouble in Palestine than there was IOTL.
On the contrary, without the leadup to WWII the British are less likely to restrict immigration, as there is less need to try to placate arab public opinion.
With a much greater pool to draw from, jews could achieve parity by the 50's.
 

Garrison

Donor
On the contrary, without the leadup to WWII the British are less likely to restrict immigration, as there is less need to try to placate arab public opinion.
With a much greater pool to draw from, jews could achieve parity by the 50's.
But why would they? There is no inevitability to the creation of a state of Israel and why would there be any mass migration of Jews barring something akin to the Holocaust.
 
The better question is how a large Jewish population will affect Europe and how European Jewish culture will develop. As example Europe will look differently at a Jewish population which are mostly integrated middle class with low birth rates than they look at impoverished Hasidic Jews with high birth rates.

The different countries will also deal with Jews differently. Denmark with a few thousand Jews will have another perspective on Jews than Poland with several millions. The lack of large Muslim minorities (France and UK will still have large Muslim minorities, but the rest of Europe will have much smaller ones without the traditional East-West pattern of migration being broken by the Iron Curtain will also effect the perspective of the different countries.

Whether Israel exists or not will also have a effect.
 
An Israel on both sides of the river Jordan is likely.

No, it’s pretty unlikely without the Nazi, what’s more likely is smaller Israel (Peel Plan).The Jewish emigration to Palestine only really boomed through 30ties. Without the Nazi gaining power in Germany Jewish emigration to Palestine will be slower, but I expect some kind of Jewish state to be established British control is also likely to last longer.
 
(I'm basically writing this like a HOI4 campaign.)

I think that there was always going to be an inevitable counter-reaction to Bolshevism, especially considering the leading/central roles many Jews played in the Russian and German Revolutions. Without the Nazis coming to power in Germany, there would still be an ultranationalist/monarchist government that comes to power, but rather than push for anything more than the borders of 1914 (at least not right away), they would focus on being a diplomatic superpower first and likely cooperate with the Poles to create a German and Polish-led Intermarium, and alsogradually improve relations with the French, by reluctantly abandoning their claims to Alsace-Lorraine, but to compensate, Germany gets a good free trade agreement. By 1943, Germany is ready for war for with the Soviet Union.

Broadly speaking, what have the new Central Powers been doing with their Jewish populations from 1936-1943 ITTL? The ghettos have returned, unless their Jewish residents convert to Christianity. Likely there are labor camps/factories, but with good conditions and food rations, as they wish for their second-class citizens to thrive, rather than slowly die out. When Stalin demands Bessarabia, the Intermarium honors their mutual defense pact and declares war on the Soviet Union.

The French political troubles still ran hot, what with the French not facing an external enemy in Germany to galvanize the people, and they see Communist and Fascist uprisings at this time; each, ironically enough, pushing for the government to attack Germany with their lowered defenses. The Fourth Republic collapses into a military junta led by De Gualle and Petain, and a French civil war begins, or more accurately the "Cordon de Paix" suppressing the Fascist and Communist revolutionaries.

As the war in the East drags on, Jewish women and girls replace their men in the factories, as the men have been conscripted into penal battalions to "purge their race of the stain of the Great War". Eventually, German scientists, with the help of "Schutzjuden" (protected Jews) like Albert Einstein are able to detonate a nuclear bomb in international waters in the Mediterranean, thanks to sea access through Yugoslavia.

In the first few months of 1945, Leningrad would fall, but Moscow and Stalingrad would remain under siege, but the Caucasus would be cut of by Intermarium troops . Seeking new allies, the German government, led by Emperor Wilhelm III, would reach out to Britain, Greece, Turkey, and Italy, and hold a conference in Vienna about restructuring the Balkans and Eastern Europe. (The French were not invited, due to the ongoing civil unrest.) Britain, having no interest except to keep the continent from having one single ruler, suggested suing for peace, but this was rejected. Italy, seeking the Adriatic coast territories, asked what it would take for Yugoslavia to trade for those territories. The Bulgarian Tsar proposed that a personal union between his house and the Karageorgevich House would suffice, semi-integrating Bulgaria into Yugoslavia, if Romania would cede Southern Dubruja, acknowledging Romanian claims in Ukraine. Hungary wanted Northern Transylvania for this deal to go through, but Germany denied them and played peacemaker, turning Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Romania into a free trade and transit zone, to harness the power of the Danube River under German direction, and improve its functions. Turkey's European Bosporous territory would be forsworn by Bulgaria and Greece for twenty years and turned into a Demilitarized International Zone in exchange for Turkey taking overlordship of the Caucasus region, but sharing resource extraction rights with the Germans and Italians. (Rhodes and the Dodecanese Islands would be returned to Greece, and Cyprus would become a British crown colony, with free trade and transit for Turks and Greeks.) A Karageorgevich princess and young Prince Simeon of Bulgaria would be betrothed, as a final agreement for the conference.

Britain would not declare war on the Soviet Union, as they saw it as a counterbalance to German power, and yet, with none of their allies or protected nations under German threat, a Lend-Lease bill to the Intermarium would be narrowly passed through the House of Commons by Oswald Mosely and his British Union of Fascists, a growing minority party, and so British steel and other war materiel would become available to Germany and its allies at a discount.

At the same time, in the United States, without a war economy to pad out the pseudo-socialist policies of FDR's administration, the Great Depression would become a great stagnation in wages which were had before 1929, but a growing national debt and inflation, which President Truman would inherit, and Congress would undo most of the New Deal. America would remain in splendid isolation, however there would still likely be a Pacific War with the Japanese. However, to defeat the Japanese, an amphibious invasion would be required, and by 1947, Emperor Hirohito would personally surrender to General Macarthur in Kyoto where the Imperial Family was evacuated to when Tokyo fell in 1946.

With fresh blood from Italy and Turkey, the Caucasus fell, and eventually 3 million Jewish men would serve with distinction on the Eastern Front, though it would remain the policy to execute Soviet political officers, especially if they were Jewish. In August 1946, Stalingrad would fall, followed by Moscow in December. The battle lines would remain static, and Stalin would seek a truce, aware of the German nuclear capability through his spies in the Balkans, specifically through Tito and his partisans.

Talks fell through in Stockholm, and, as February turned to March in 1947; the remnants of Soviet Army would make one final counteroffensive. For the next two months the three main strongholds of Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad would routinely change hands, and seeing no other way to stem the tide of German and allied blood, he ordered the nuclear bombing of Arkhangelsk, Samara, Ufa, Chelyabinsk, and Atyrau.

(Mussolini would purchase Tunisia from the Cordon de Paix in exchange for help suppressing colonial uprisings (by the Italian Army) and the French Communards (with the help of Blackshirt units.)

As it happened, Stalin and his cabinet were in Ufa when the bomb dropped. With the head cut of from the serpent, regional commanders and politicians scrambled to find someone to represent the nation and negotiate for a surrender. Eventually, Nikita Khrushchev, having been on the front lines near Stalingrad, was pushed forward by the Supreme Soviet as the new General Secretary, and he unconditionally surrendered in Moscow on September 2, 1947 to Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. A "Joint Council of Military Government" between German and Russian generals, except for those arrested for war crimes, would rule Russia during the peace talks.

Poland would surrender the Germanic territories in the north in exchange for their old borders as the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, (splitting Czechoslovakia with the Germans and Hungarians), with the addition of Latvia and Estonia. The Germans would also retain Memel and the Romanians would retain their new lands in Western Ukraine. The Romanovs would be restored in Russia with a German-style constitutional monarchy, but would be heavily demilitarized by treaty, but not deindutrialized, and they would become heavily economically dependent on German loans to rebuild the Rodina.

In January 1948, Colonel Dario Gabbai petitioned Emperor Wilhelm to "honor the service of the Jewish race to the freedom and good welfare of the European community of nations, by freeing us to take hold of our own blood and soil; to reclaim Haaretz Yisroel". The Emperor replied, "When this program began, I gave my word that the Jewish nation would be reborn in fire and iron and blood. You have shared in our victory, now it is time to claim your own."

With the resources of the Intermarium, by 1950, 10 million Jews from Europe and Russia would arrive in Israel, and in 1952, the State of Israel would be founded. An Arab-Israeli war would start, but the Jews, hardened by war and flush with war materiel from the Intermarium and plundered from British stockpiles drove back every invader. In 1955, a new constitution would explicitly define Israel as a Jewish ethno-state, and the Arabs would be expelled from Israel over the next ten years.

Beyond this point, I can't really predict further.
 
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But why would they? There is no inevitability to the creation of a state of Israel and why would there be any mass migration of Jews barring something akin to the Holocaust.
There already was a mass immigration movement of jews by that time, and as the economic conditions in Palestine continues to improve while Poland slides more and more towards authoritarianism and antisemitism continues to rise in the Baltics, Germany and France, than you will see continued immigration.
The Jews were already a third of the population, they becoming 40-50% by the 50's is not that far fetched.
Colonialism was dying, and the British would eventually leave. After that there is no reason to believe that the war of independence would go any other way and could only go better for the jewish side.
An interesting change might be that the arab side understand that they would loose, so they either accept a partition plan or agree on a power sharing deal (similar to Lebanon).
 

Garrison

Donor
There already was a mass immigration movement of jews by that time, and as the economic conditions in Palestine continues to improve while Poland slides more and more towards authoritarianism and antisemitism continues to rise in the Baltics, Germany and France, than you will see continued immigration.
The Jews were already a third of the population, they becoming 40-50% by the 50's is not that far fetched.
Colonialism was dying, and the British would eventually leave. After that there is no reason to believe that the war of independence would go any other way and could only go better for the jewish side.
An interesting change might be that the arab side understand that they would loose, so they either accept a partition plan or agree on a power sharing deal (similar to Lebanon).
Well define mass movement? Because it doesn't seem to me that its suddenly going to dramatically increase and even if the Jews do become a larger percentage of the population why is anyone going to support the overthrow of Palestine to create a state of Israel, which if I understand it correctly a lot of Zionists opposed?
 
The partition plans were viewed as the first step in a Jewish state from river to sea.

Here there is an even larger Jewish population ready and willing to emigrate to Palestine.

No, the emigration only increased in the 30ties, without the Nazi Palestine will continue seeing a slower influx of Jews. They will also be quite different from the Jews Israel saw from the 1930 and forward. The Peel suggestion also followed land ownership more closely.

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If we look at the fourth and fifth Aliya, we can see the fourth mainly be dominated by Polish and Russian Jews, while Russian Jews almost completely disappearing in the fifth and German Jews completely out outnumbers the Polish Jews which goes from roughly half to only a quarter. Of course in raw number Polish immigrants stay roughly the same. But without the German Jews Palestine will see vastly less Jewish immigration. So instead of Jews going from 18% to 31% of the population from 1931-1941, it will likely only increase to 22-25% of the Palestinian population. Of course without the massive influx we don't see the Arab uprising in the 30ties and Palestine likely see a continued influx of Polish Jews in 40ties and 50ties,and we likely end up seeing a Arab uprising later instead.
 
Well define mass movement? Because it doesn't seem to me that its suddenly going to dramatically increase and even if the Jews do become a larger percentage of the population why is anyone going to support the overthrow of Palestine to create a state of Israel, which if I understand it correctly a lot of Zionists opposed?
I believe that war was probably inevitable by the 30's. Britain probably leaves in the mid to late 50's, and by then the Jewish percentage is gona be around 40% or such.
There is no reason to think that the war will end differently, as the POD doesn't change the total unpreparedness of arab armies.
During and after the war you are going to see massive immigration as a wave of excitement runs through the European communities, and a wave of violence and destruction runs through the communities in the arab lands (Iraq was already talking about ethnic cleansing the jews in 1934, so no hope for a peaceful coexistence there...).
 

Garrison

Donor
I believe that war was probably inevitable by the 30's. Britain probably leaves in the mid to late 50's, and by then the Jewish percentage is gona be around 40% or such.
There is no reason to think that the war will end differently, ut war as the POD doesn't change the total unpreparedness of arab armies.
During and after the war you are going to see massive immigration as a wave of excitement runs through the European communities, and a wave of violence and destruction runs through the communities in the arab lands (Iraq was already talking about ethnic cleansing the jews in 1934, so no hope for a peaceful coexistence there...).
But war doesn't mean a Holocaust, and you would have to explain why anyone who isn't the Nazis would carry out this mass murder. You are just jumping through increasingly convoluted hoops to have an Israel.
 

Garrison

Donor
To address a couple of other points. Firstly war is anything but inevitable in the absence of the Nazis, which is what the OP specified. There might be peripheral wars but nothing on the scale of WW1. Also even if there was a major European war that doesn't mean some massive pogrom against the Jews, this after all didn't happen during WW1.
 
I believe that war was probably inevitable by the 30's. Britain probably leaves in the mid to late 50's, and by then the Jewish percentage is gona be around 40% or such.

I expect around 25% by 1940 and 30% by 1950 and around 35% by 1960. I expect Arab uprisings by the mid 40ties, but without the British weakness as result of the War, I expect the British to stay around longer. Rise of Arab nationalism may also lead to British beginning to favor the Jews over the Arabs.

There is no reason to think that the war will end differently, as the POD doesn't change the total unpreparedness of arab armies.

I agree, but we also need to deal with the fact that there will be fewer Jewish veterans around and even more important fewer non-Jewish volunteers. Of course here another factor will be that there will be stronger European states, and there’re no reasons for countries like Germany and Poland to not throw their support behind Israel, especially Social Democratic parties will favor the Israeli and many Christian Democratic parties also.

During and after the war you are going to see massive immigration as a wave of excitement runs through the European communities, and a wave of violence and destruction runs through the communities in the arab lands (Iraq was already talking about ethnic cleansing the jews in 1934, so no hope for a peaceful coexistence there...).

European Jews will be split on Israel, but the Jews who matter political like secular Jews whether they like the concept or not will throw their support behind it (If for no other reason to avoid see fellow Jews being slaughtered). Social Democrats and fundamentalist Christians will also be pro-Israel.
 
But war doesn't mean a Holocaust, and you would have to explain why anyone who isn't the Nazis would carry out this mass murder. You are just jumping through increasingly convoluted hoops to have an Israel.
Oh, I meant a war at the end of the British mandate (like in 1948), not wwii, sorry for not making it clear.
 
I agree, but we also need to deal with the fact that there will be fewer Jewish veterans around and even more important fewer non-Jewish volunteers. Of course here another factor will be that there will be stronger European states, and there’re no reasons for countries like Germany and Poland to not throw their support behind Israel, especially Social Democratic parties will favor the Israeli and many Christian Democratic parties also.
Thats true, but on the other hand there is also less equipment and foreign officers for the Jordanians and other arab armies. And Syria and Lebanon might still be french, so one less front against the Jewish side.
I am not sure that non-jewish volunteers for the IDF were really a thing in 48.
The important factors in my opinion would be that the Palestinian leadership and armed groups might have more time to rebuild after their revolt, and that the Jews would have European jewry still alive and backing them. With that I think that the outcome of the war would be more or less the same, but you might see a Palestinian state emerging after the war, instead of the arab states occupying them.
 
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