No Israel and lessen Holocaust where do the Jews go

Say Palestine goes to Jordan or is set up as it's own Hashemite monarchy after WW1 blocking off Jewish migration in the region and a lessen Holocaust with 1.5 million death something like a massive pogrom.

With Palestine blocked off to Jewish immigration and larger population, where does Europe Jewish population head.
 

Marc

Donor
All right, first a lesser mass murder with only 1.5 million Jews killed (presumably with like numbers of various other folk like the Rom), is still a Holocaust. let's not forget that, ever.
Second, a reduced slaughter can only be seen in a earlier defeat of the Nazi's. If that happened, all extrapolations are off the chart - really, think about it.
Third no British Mandate of Palestine has a major altering impact on history, both in the Middle East and throughout Europe - so your question becomes moot in that unknown context.
So basically, your premise is just about impossible to deal with.
(I must admit I rather like the pure fantasy of evicting the wealthiest part of Germany to create a Jewish State, poetic punishment of the utterly guilty.)
 
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Second, a reduced slaughter can only be seen in a earlier defeat of the Nazi's. If that happened, all extrapolations are off the chart - really, think about it.
Wouldn't something like no camps and planning to hold off the killing until post war get lower deaths

Third no British Mandate of Palestine has a major altering impact on history, both in the Middle East and throughout Europe - so your question becomes moot in that unknown context.
I don't see how Palestine as a British protectorate is going to keep the Nazis from coming to power .
 
Say Palestine goes to Jordan or is set up as it's own Hashemite monarchy after WW1 blocking off Jewish migration in the region and a lessen Holocaust with 1.5 million death something like a massive pogrom.

With Palestine blocked off to Jewish immigration and larger population, where does Europe Jewish population head.
There might be enough that the nations of Europe are forced to reaccept them.

Or they become "Palestinians", living in DP camps for generations.
 

Marc

Donor
Wouldn't something like no camps and planning to hold off the killing until post war get lower deaths
I don't see how Palestine as a British protectorate is going to keep the Nazis from coming to power .
They wouldn't be Nazi's if they held off. This has been thrashed about some years on the Forum; mass murder is a dominant attribute for them, along with no impulse control.And, not being Nazi's eliminates the entire speculation.
"Say Palestine goes to Jordan or is set up as it's own Hashemite monarchy after WW1 blocking off Jewish migration in the region " - That means no British Mandate, which precedes the Nazi's etc, and changes everything.
 
Wouldn't something like no camps and planning to hold off the killing until post war get lower deaths
No, it won't. Perhaps it'd mean fewer than 6 million, but it'll be more than 1.5. For these people to survive the war, they have to eat. Germany will find it increasingly difficult to feed the Wehrmacht, let alone German civilians, non-Jewish slave laborers, and prisoners of war. It only takes a few months to die of starvation, and OTL offers those few months: the winter of 1944/45. Only the Notzis can manage a Holocaust of less than 1.5 million, and it's hard to imagine how, even if there's no Barbarossa and even if they don't get the eastern half of Poland.

If, somehow, there's no Israel, the United States will certainly take the greatest number of people. The Commonwealth will probably take more than they took OTL, and France will take more as well. Other countries that accepted Jewish refugees IOTL will likely take more as well: parts of South America, and even China. That may make the political influence of the Jewish diaspora different than what we had IOTL.

Many European Jews, in Poland and elsewhere, were Zionists even before WW2. The diarists of the ghettos often mention Zionist youth groups and other organizations; for example, they considered their work on vegetable gardens in the ghettos as practice for working on kibbutzim in the Land of Israel. So, it's interesting to consider how those people might end up as equivalents of OTL's Arab Palestinians. Many would go there and live as refugees, since they have a claim to the land, in some sense, and it wouldn't be politically or morally acceptable to expel them. It's impossible to say how that would turn out. But, since there has still been a Holocaust (and I think many more than 1.5 million would have died), I think the victors of WW2 would feel obligated to give them something. It might be more of a compromise than OTL's Israel, and there might be militias instead of the IDF, and shared power instead of the Knesset. A final thought: although it did help the Entente against the Ottomans in WW1, the Arab world didn't side with the victors as much in WW2. So, if Palestine is part of Jordan or is ruled by an Arab monarchy, the US and UK may not be entirely sympathetic. (Presuming there's a Cold War, I don't think the Soviets will necessarily be very sympathetic, either.)
 
1,5 million killed would be be very different, it would be traumatic, but not to the same degree as in OTL and it would happen in quite a different way and would likely be much more regionalized. So let’s go with 1 milion Jews killed in Poland and the rest mostly in the USSR. What would likely happen would be that most Jews stayed in their original countries.
 
Probably the United States. Thats where the major chassidic dynasties fled.
The US only really started accepting Jewish refugees after the vast majority had gone to Israel (many of the Chasids had religious opposition to going to Israel), and some actually made it over before the Holocaust. The US is 1945 or even 1948 was not in a place where it was going to accept large numbers of Jewish refugees.
 
If, somehow, there's no Israel, the United States will certainly take the greatest number of people. The Commonwealth will probably take more than they took OTL, and France will take more as well. Other countries that accepted Jewish refugees IOTL will likely take more as well: parts of South America, and even China. That may make the political influence of the Jewish diaspora different than what we had IOTL.
Could one of the plans for an alternate homeland for Jews be dig up ?
 
They wouldn't be Nazi's if they held off. This has been thrashed about some years on the Forum; mass murder is a dominant attribute for them, along with no impulse control..
I was interested on destinations for a larger Jewish population without access to Palestine that wanted to leave quickly rather than the specific scenario in the op.
 
Tasmania. Yes, it was a serious proposal as an alternative to Palestine. If might have been taken up if the UN hadn't bought the Zionist lie, "a people for an empty land". That basically ignored the existence of the Palestinians. Tasmania's population had stagnated between the world wars. It was a fertile island with plenty of empty land. There was no native population by 1914. However, would the Jews have accepted being a state in Australia, rather than an independent nation of their own? Would the Australian Government been willing to accept a large number of Jewish immigrants? Anti-Semitism existed downunder, just as badly as elsewhere unfortunately.
 
just an idea: Wouldnt South Africa be interested in taking them ? I mean they are a huge number of whites searching for a home.
 
They wouldn't be Nazi's if they held off. This has been thrashed about some years on the Forum; mass murder is a dominant attribute for them, along with no impulse control.And, not being Nazi's eliminates the entire speculation.
"Say Palestine goes to Jordan or is set up as it's own Hashemite monarchy after WW1 blocking off Jewish migration in the region " - That means no British Mandate, which precedes the Nazi's etc, and changes everything.
Except it wasnt just mass murder, it was mass murder with monomaniacal efficiency and an industrially-planned strategy. Its not correct to attribute that to lack of impulse control. If anything, there was a surplus of it. Impulse would be a mob storming the Jewish Quarter after some sort of rumour or a ruler tight on cash using anti-Semitism to extort the local Jewry, not keeping a record of millions of people and their ancestors, creating a railway regime, and maintaining massive extermination camps. This is what separates the Holocaust from other genocides and the simple pogroms that came before it. In that sense, it is an incredibly unusual event that could be butterflied away by a less fanatic, more conservative NSDAP.
 

Marc

Donor
Except it wasnt just mass murder, it was mass murder with monomaniacal efficiency and an industrially-planned strategy. Its not correct to attribute that to lack of impulse control. If anything, there was a surplus of it. Impulse would be a mob storming the Jewish Quarter after some sort of rumour or a ruler tight on cash using anti-Semitism to extort the local Jewry, not keeping a record of millions of people and their ancestors, creating a railway regime, and maintaining massive extermination camps. This is what separates the Holocaust from other genocides and the simple pogroms that came before it. In that sense, it is an incredibly unusual event that could be butterflied away by a less fanatic, more conservative NSDAP.
Ah, I was using impulse control in the immediate gratification sense. As soon as the Nazis took absolute power they began their murderous agenda as opposed to delay. That lack of control continued throughout the war.
Actually, the efficiency came later as they realized that casual mass slaughter wasn't fast enough.
 
Western Europe and Latin America would probably receive a lot of postwar Jewish immigration. France and Belgium had been attractive destinations compared to antisemitism in much of eastern Europe, a lot of the Jews living in Belgium in 1939 were actually recent immigrants.

Latin America could continue to be a destination for Jewish immigration to the extent that Latin Americans were still trying to attract European immigrants. Any European Jews with technical and engineering skills could end up designing and maintaining Venezuelan oil wells, or the big infrastructure projects that were a staple of Import-Substitution Industrialization.

Of all places, West Germany might be a destination for more Ashkenazi Jews fleeing Eastern Europe. The German affiliate of the world Jewish Congress founded in 1950 is called the "Central Council of Jews in Germany", rather than the Central Council of German Jews because so many of its early members were refugees and displaced persons from Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe. They were pretty much assimilated by the '80s, that wave of migration was the dress-rehearsal for the OTL post-Cold War emigration of many Jews from the former Soviet Union to Germany.
 
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