No Britannia

How would Rome have faired if Britain had never been subjugated? While wealthy it was out of the way. Where would its legions been placed instead, Dacia?

Also how would the island develop without the Roman yoke? Could the Britons have mounted a continued harassment of Gaul?
 
Rome invaded Britain because of the need of lumber (they were really good at deforestation to a degree seldom matched unto the modern era). That need won't go away, and the honor and glory of Rome of course always calls to brave generals, senators and emperors (if the empire comes to pass).

As to the 'Roman Yoke', they'd develop much the same as they had before the Romans came, and harassment of Gaul would lead to Roman invasions and subjugation so... Self-defeating?
 
I don't think that Britannia was ever all that wealthy/profitable for the romans, especially considering how much man power was needed to hold on to it.

The only way i can see them going on without a roman yoke, as you put it, is to unify as one kingdom or confederation and become an independent client nation
 
Without a Roman invasion or with a more successful Boudicca, i can see the Iceni forming a coherent kingdom and system of clients around southeastern Britain, in a situation like the Bosporan Kingdom of Crimea. I, however, still expect migrating Germanics to subdue to islands later on.
 
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Rome invaded Britain because of the need of lumber (they were really good at deforestation to a degree seldom matched unto the modern era). That need won't go away, and the honor and glory of Rome of course always calls to brave generals, senators and emperors (if the empire comes to pass).

Claudius also didn't have any military experience so his invasion was as much a PR stunt to show he was a successful conquering emperor expanding Rome as it was about any actual strategic or economic goal.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Without a Roman invasion or with a more successful Boudicca, i can see the Iceni forming a coherent kingdom and system of clients around southeastern Britain, in a situation like the Bosporan Kingdom of Crimea. I, however, still expect migrating Germanics to subdue to islands later on.

You expect Germanics to still take over later? At the same speed and extent as in OTL, or different?

Yours is a rare position to take on this question. Most who speculate on a never-Roman Britain tend to think it would be *better* at fighting off Germanics, because a) they don't forget how to fight for themselves and probably, b) they are less wealthy to plunder.

Claudius also didn't have any military experience so his invasion was as much a PR stunt to show he was a successful conquering emperor expanding Rome as it was about any actual strategic or economic goal.

Were there any other suitable targets near Roman borders that Romans had heard of and that would serve the purpose of an achievable conquest?
 
You expect Germanics to still take over later? At the same speed and extent as in OTL, or different?
Yours is a rare position to take on this question. Most who speculate on a never-Roman Britain tend to think it would be *better* at fighting off Germanics, because a) they don't forget how to fight for themselves and probably, b) they are less wealthy to plunder.
Personally, i don't think Roman rule had much effect over Britain, other than art and language. The imperial province was poor, and the hypothesis of the Romans "making the Celto-Britons into sissies" makes no sense to me.
 
Personally, i don't think Roman rule had much effect over Britain, other than art and language. The imperial province was poor, and the hypothesis of the Romans "making the Celto-Britons into sissies" makes no sense to me.

Are you kidding? Roman rule had not much effect on Britain? Seriously? So from roads, to geopolitical structure, language (erm extremely important culturally) to warfare and of course to legacy. Roman rule had little effect on Britain.
 
Are you kidding? Roman rule had not much effect on Britain? Seriously? So from roads, to geopolitical structure, language (erm extremely important culturally) to warfare and of course to legacy. Roman rule had little effect on Britain.

Pre-roman Britain already had roads (admittedly not as good as roman ones), they've left very little linguistic influence on the brythonic languages that have survived to today, and I'm not aware of any direct effects on their legal or political structure, or their style of warfare.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Francis Pryor has argued that Claudius' invasion may well have been as much in response to a request from a British client king, than an outright invasion. This would indicate a level of Romanisation and relations between Britain and the continent, in the period after Cesar's invasions, and might give a clue to how things could have developed. The Catuvellauni were also expanding their control over neighbouring tribal groupings, and its quite possible that a system of relatively functional pre-Roman "states" could have come into existence
 
Pre-roman Britain already had roads (admittedly not as good as roman ones), they've left very little linguistic influence on the brythonic languages that have survived to today, and I'm not aware of any direct effects on their legal or political structure, or their style of warfare.
Actually, Latin influence on Brythonic was pervasive and thoroughgoing, even at the structural level.
 
Actually, Latin influence on Brythonic was pervasive and thoroughgoing, even at the structural level.
Really now? I'd like to see some evidence for that.
Many of the latinate words either come from the influence of the catholic church, or entered via english loanwords, not from the romans themselves.
 
Really now? I'd like to see some evidence for that.
Many of the latinate words either come from the influence of the catholic church, or entered via english loanwords, not from the romans themselves.
On the contrary, loanwords from Latin penetrate even the most basic strata of the language and can be easily dated to before the rise of the Catholic Church or Anglo-Saxon arrival in Britain. If we leave aside "cultural" words for which there would have been no native Brythonic equivalent (book, letter, school etc), there's still a remarkable number of Latin loanwords which have become the basic or only word for the concept in the Brythonic languages. For example:

coes 'leg' < L. coxa
braich 'arm' < L. bracchium
asgell 'wing' < L. ascella
barf 'beard' < L. barba
boch 'cheek' < L. bucca
corff 'body' < L. corpus
corn 'horn' < L. cornu
gwain 'vagina' < L. vagina

And that's just in the realm of body parts. For comparison, in English a Latin- or French-derived term for a part of the body is rarely the basic word, and there's always a solid Germanic synonym which remains in use (e.g. stomach vs belly): in Welsh these are the basic or only terms and the original Brythonic words have not survived.

As it happens, the Latin element in the Welsh lexicon is the part which has received the most scholarly attention. Falileyev's 2002 article Latin Loanwords in Old Welsh is comprehensive and up to date, although deals only with the rather limited corpus of Old Welsh (it is telling, however, that even in such a small number of documents the evidence for a thorough Latin lexifical penetration into the language is overwhelming). Haarmann's 1970 work Der lateinische Lehnwortschatz im Kymrischen is an excellent statement of the current common opinion in Celtic linguistics on the Latin influence on the Brythonic lexicon: the essential summary of the evidence is that Brythonic experienced a massive influx of Latin loanwords during the period of the Roman occupation, which were often mediated early by the Roman army rather than later by the Catholic church. I can supply the evidence for why it's thought that the army contributed more than the church if you like, but this post is getting rather long as it is without even addressing the Latin structural influence and its implications. However, before moving on I think it's worth noting that the native term for the autochthonous inhabitants of Britain in all three Brythonic languages is in fact a loan from Latin rather than a continuation of the Celtic original.

Schrijver, in his 2002 article The Rise and Fall of British Latin makes the point that "Lexical borrowing represents the most superficial level on which languages can influence one another. Particularly in the case of Latin, influences on a more structural level are to be expected." And this indeed is what we see. Let's look at phonology first, and then morphosyntax. Schrijver lists six phonological areas in which Latin influenced Brythonic, I'll limit myself to the three which to me seem the most significant:

Proto-Celtic, as far as we can determine, had word-initial stress, a feature which still obtains in the Goidelic languages. In Brythonic this was retained until about the second century CE, before shifting to a Latinate penultimate stress. This is significant for two reasons: it allows us to reliably date a number of Latin loanwords to before the influence of Christianity; and it is during this period that the Vulgar Latin of Gaul underwent a series of syncopes and apocopes to arrive at a similar system (we can therefore reasonably assume the same for the spoken Latin of Britain). Again, it is significant that from our evidence Gaulish underwent the same changes during this period.

In spoken Romance during the first few centuries CE, we see a loss of final nasals in polysyllables but not in monosyllables. We see exactly the same phenomenon in early Brythonic. Thus we find nasal mutation in Brythonic triggered only by monosyllables (e.g. fy nhŷ 'my house' < *men tegos) rather than the situation that obtains in Old Irish, where nasal mutation is triggered by any word ending in a nasal consonant, regardless of syllable structure: compare Welsh y pen bach without nasalisation with Old Irish a gcenn mbecc with nasalisation, both from a putative Proto-Celtic *sosin kʷennon bekkon. Given the importance of mutation in the later Celtic languages, this is not a trivial change.

Proto-Celtic, like Classical Latin, had a vowel system which opposed long vowels to short vowels, a situation which persisted into Old Irish. Brythonic and early Romance, however, collapsed this quantity-based system into one primarily based on quality. The manner in which this took place is tellingly similar to what happened in the Romance of northern Gaul. We can assume that both Latin and Brythonic had a vowel system ī i ē e ā a ō o ū u at the time of the Roman conquest. By around the fourth century however, both had transformed this into a vowel system along the lines of *i ɪ e ɛ a æ o ɔ y ʊ, with length now being conditioned by stress and syllable structure rather than being contrastive and inherent to the vowel.

From the point of morphosyntax, there are three main points where Latin influence on Brythonic is clear. Further, it's clear that the kind of Latin which influenced Brythonic was not the Latin of scholarship or the church, but the spoken everyday Latin of the people. The implication here, of course, is not Catholic missionaries intoning sermons and prayers in good ecclesiastical Latin from which the uncomprehending peasants picked up a word or two, but rather of long-term bilingualism with strong evidence of language shift in favour of Latin.

Firstly, Brythonic, along with early Romance, lost its case system (again, note that Irish, where the Latin influence was solely one of Catholic missionaries intoning sermons, retains a case system to this day). Furthermore, the manner in which the case system was lost seems to have closely paralleled that of early Romance: from a six-case system we see a collapse into a two-case system.

Secondly, like Romance, Brythonic lost the neuter gender. Again, Old Irish maintained a three-gender system until the beginning of the Middle Irish period. The manner in which this happened is probably similar to how it happened in Romance again: via the loss of nasal vowels in polysyllables.

Thirdly, and significantly, Brythonic developed a synthetic pluperfect tense (a synthetic tense is one where you change the end of a verb, not one where you add an auxiliary verb: in French, for example, je chantais 'I was singing' is synthetic while j'ai chanté 'I sang' is analytic). This has no parallel in the other Celtic languages and appears to be relatively late. Creating a whole new synthetic tense is unusual enough but the really significant thing here is that the new Brythonic pluperfect was formed in exactly the same way as the Latin equivalent: by adding the imperfect forms of the verb to be to the perfect stem. For example, in Latin we have the verb aget 'he acts', which has the perfect stem ēg-, as in ēgit 'he has acted'. To form the pluperfect, we add the imperfect form of the verb to be- in this case erat 'he was' to the perfect stem: ēgeram 'I had acted'. In early Brythonic then we have the verb *aget 'he drives', which has the perfect stem *axt-, as in *axte 'he has driven'. So we add the imperfect of the verb to be *ējat 'he was' to the perfect stem giving *axtējat. Or, in Modern Literary Welsh: â 'he goes', aeth 'he has gone' and aethai 'he had gone'.

tl;dr - yeah, there's actually loads of evidence.
 
Bear in mind that wales and Cornwall were the least romanised parts of roman Britain so to hold them up as the standard for roman influence on language is misleading.
 
Indeed. Given the massive amount of Roman influence even on the peripheries, imagine how pervasive it would have been in the more heavily Romanised areas of the island (i.e. they probably spoke Latin).
 

Toraach

Banned
De facto this situation would be better for Rome. They just wasted legions and auxilia on the Hadrian Wall, when they were just better needed elsewhere, and Britain wasn't that important for the Empire. Better situation than OTL conquest I can see in two diffrent ways.
1. A total subjugation of all British Isles, Ireland and minor islands including. Which might lead to their total romanisation and in turn to lower military presence there. Or even OTL number of soldiers could be still there, but to watch over bigger population and area, so economicaly better situation.
2. Leaving the Islands alone. And just tranding with them. As in the main the richest part of the biggest isle where now is England, were celts not far from Gauls in their culture and civilizational development. So they weren't "dirty barbarians". With towns, I don't know if the celtic script was used in the British Islands, but still it isn't imporant, they might later adopt script from Romans. In this scenario, it will still lead to romanisation of the Islands, but not romanisation as becoming romans or adopting Lating, but to romanisation of the celtic culture, as taking cultural patters and achievements from Rome, being inspired by Romans. Just like in Poland slavs took many aspects from the West, particulary Germany: a lot of stuff contected to city living, crafts, better construction technices, etc, yet still remained slavs. In this ATL all of that are achieved purely by peaceful means, like trade, contacts, travels etc. in the OTL one greek city in the South of Gaul Marsalia, managed to deaply influece celtic culture in Gaul. So the big Empire could do the same with Britain. An interesting thing is how might look a political evolution of celtic Britain. Could someone unite a big part of the islands? There is a patter for that in the Continent, and some ruler might thing it might be cool to be like this big guy from Rome. But also I think that Romans will treat diffrent states as their clients, and play them against each other. Also I don't think that Celts won't go "viking" against Rome, at least as long as Rome is strong. I think that around year 200, in a case of no roman conquest Britain would have been a much diffrent place from itself as it had been before OTL conquest.
 
On the contrary, loanwords from Latin penetrate even the most basic strata of the language and can be easily dated to before the rise of the Catholic Church or Anglo-Saxon arrival in Britain. If we leave aside "cultural" words for which there would have been no native Brythonic equivalent (book, letter, school etc), there's still a remarkable number of Latin loanwords which have become the basic or only word for the concept in the Brythonic languages. For example:

coes 'leg' < L. coxa
braich 'arm' < L. bracchium
asgell 'wing' < L. ascella
barf 'beard' < L. barba
boch 'cheek' < L. bucca
corff 'body' < L. corpus
corn 'horn' < L. cornu
gwain 'vagina' < L. vagina
....

Since Italic and Celtic were very closely related, some even postulate an Italo-Celtic group, how do we know that this is the result of borrowing from Latin and not shared characteristics from the common predescessor?

You've obviously studied this in far more depth than I have, but that was my initial thought when reading your post.
 
Since Italic and Celtic were very closely related, some even postulate an Italo-Celtic group, how do we know that this is the result of borrowing from Latin and not shared characteristics from the common predescessor?

You've obviously studied this in far more depth than I have, but that was my initial thought when reading your post.
1) The words are attested only in the Brythonic languages, not the Goidelic languages, which cuts down on their chance of being Proto-Celtic in origin.
2) The relevant words don't show the regular correspondences we would expect between Celtic and Italic: they are indicative of Italic rather than Celtic prehistory. For example, Latin corpus comes from a Proto-Indo-European *krép-os-. If the same form had survived into Proto-Celtic, the regular outcome would be something like **kreφos-, which in turn would give something like **cryw (maybe) in Welsh, as PIE *p was lost in Celtic but not in Italic.
3) Italo-Celtic is a tad controversial, tbh. Italic seems to have just as many links with Germanic: it's more likely that any similarities between the three groups are due to proximity rather than any particular shared descent from a common ancestor after PIE.
4) Occam's razor. Why assume a hypothetical common ancestor when the Latin forms explain the Welsh outcomes exactly?
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Italic and Celtic are more closely tied together than Celtic and Germanic?

What are each of those language families closeness or distance relative to Greek, Slavic, Baltic, Armenian or Hittite or Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian ?
 
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