Neanderthals survive to present day

[Dynamitard]

WI Neanderthal had surivived to the current day? Would these big, dumb muscled folk get the same rights as humans? Would they be used as soldiers and construction workers? Would they seek they're own rights, or would they be dumb not to?
Are they people or just person-shaped pack animals?
What do you guys think?

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Wasn't there a similary-themed thread somewhere in the recent past?

 

[Hapsburg]

What, like in Eaters of the Dead?

 

[Tom Veil]

Slave labor. Without question. From everything we know about them, Homo neanderthalensis were truly inferior, not just imagined to be inferior like all the various groups of homo sapiens sapiens that have been imagined to be inferior by various slavemasters.

It takes an alarmingly high level of civilization before humans are willing to give up slavery. Consider USA 1861 -- we'd fought a war to create the world's first nation based purely on philosophical principles of liberty and equalty, grown progressively more free for 80 years, and we still had slavery. And it wasn't just Americans -- Europe and Mexico had only banned slavery a couple decades earlier, both whites and blacks continued practicing slavery in ever-shrinking areas of Africa with government backing up to the 1950s, and Islam allowed for slavery until Europeans embarrased them into banning it. It's loathsome, but it's apparently a very tight fit with our innate desire to improve and expand.

So if we had access to something that similar to humans, but verifiably dumber and stronger, I'd bet that Neanderthal slavery would survive the early industrial era and actually take an even more morbid turn when this alt.world's version of Social Darwinism emerges. My guess is that it would take until 1950s-tech before society would wake up and realize that it was abusing and mistreating sentient beings. At that point, we have one hell of a problem. When black slavery ended, we just left blacks to fend for themselves, and after another 100 years of racism blacks began to get the same rights as everyone else. White people helped a lot, but basically blacks boot-strapped their way to equality. I can't imagine a disenfranchised group that really is inferior pulling off the same feat. So we couldn't humanely "release" them to be a permanent mentally-retarded underclass, like the Deltas in Brave New World. We couldn't kill them, either, b/c any society prepared to emancipate them would realize that genocide is wrong, too. And unlike what some animal-rights activists propose doing with domestic cows or zoo monkeys, we couldn't gradually release them back to "the wild" because the "natural" state of Neanderthals is society. So basically, we'd have to herd them onto reservations, where crime, depression, listlessness, and drug abuse would be constant problems.

Wow. I just created an extremely depressing TL.

 

[Straha]

Less intrahuman racism and much more racism against the neanderthals. No possiblity of racial mixing to help asimilate the slaves. Same with assimlation in general(not smart neanderthals). South Carolina 2006 would have plantations worked by slaves with both white and black overseers(likely some asian overseers since TTL's *US wouldn't have any problems letting in asians in the 19th century)

 

[CalBear]

The Neanderthals were different, not inferior. Some current thinking is that their lack of art & some differences in their tool kit indicates they were not suited for survival. I have found these arguments to be open to question as they seem to show open preference of the "artistic" type without much support.
Less artistic? Based on evidence in record, no question.

Less adaptable? Possibly, even probably.

Decidedly inferior? Need more than a Bison painting and some antler needles to prove that.

Inside genus Homo Sapiens Sapiens it is easy to find extremely bright individuals or whole societies that could care less about art or changing to new fangled tools. The Neanderthals may well have been less well suited to survive, but intelligence may not have been a factor. It may have come down to something as simple as gestation periods or fertility. If Neanderthals had longer gestations or were even slightly less fertile than Sapiens Sapiens they would, in a world where infant mortality was already very high & few individuals live past 35, be pushed out of areas by pure population pressures (Too many mouths for too little game = smaller band gets pushed to different, less bountiful hunting area. Wash, Rinse, Repeat a few dozen time & bye-bye Neanderthals).

One also has to consider this - until the 1500's warfare was biased toward the strong & disciplined. It is not too much to imagine the Neanderthals being the troops of whichever Empire was the first to embrace them as, if not equals, at least valuable. Imagine two classical period armies, one with purely Modern humans, the other with half of it's force Neanderthal. Even if the Neanderthals weren't carving ivory figurines before the battle, which side is your money going to back? Rather than slaves, the Neanderthals could have proved to be the backbone of European Empires from Spain to the Balkans and North to the Baltic. Mao once said that all power comes from the barrel of a gun. From prehistory to the Bronze & Iron ages through to the Crusades power came from a strong sword arm. Who would have been the slaves?

Modern Humans survived extinction by an eyelash more than once, based on recent DNA analysis. One more flu bug & it could have been Neanderthals wondering what would have happened if those weak Homo Espanias had survived.

 

[Martinus Paduei]

Neanderthals aren't extinct. My wife calls me a Neanderthal every so often. Why would she lie?

 

[NapoleonXIV]

I have to agree with CalBear.

A lack of art might be just a lack of art that survived or that has been found. We have no good indication beyond that they were any less intelligent, they seemed to hunt the same and have similar, if less developed, (again, only going by the evidence that was left and/or has been found) social structures. Admittedly, their tools were less developed, but so were Cro-Magnons for most of the time in question.

We have as much indication that Neanderthals were overall superior to us as inferior. They had a far greater capacity to withstand pain and recover from injury, were stronger, had greater endurance and were much better adapted to cold.

It is, in many ways, baffling that they were not the ones who survived.

If they were still around it is very possible they would not be all that noticed. The differences are morphological and would no doubt be exceeded by individual differences between members of the same species, as happens with us and differing races, so another grouping might escape the onus of racism due to society's inherent racism itself.

Given their numbers, however, I just don't see any way they would not be assimilated to the point of indistinguishability in far antiquity.

 

[DuQuense]

IIRC Neaderthal's Brain Case is larger than Sapien's they just have less frontal lobe, but more anterior lobe size.

Whatever that all means for intellectual development.

 

[Umbral]

We do not really know much about the Neanderthals and their intelligence or capabilities. They do, however, seem to have been decidedly less adaptive and creative than us. Areas where they came into contact with us show that they were quite capable of adopting techniques and tools developed by us.

They do not seem to have had much capacity for original thinking though. I've heard that Neanderthals never made a sea voyage. Even when bountiful islands were within sight, they never went there.

Some people have advanced the theory that Neanderthals did not have a language capable of abstract concepts like us. No verbal transmission of culture skills and memories, means everything has to be transmitted by example, or learned all over again.

Also, their..."intellectual conceptual environment" would have been nonexistent, compared to Sapiens Sapiens. If that makes sense to you.

Of course, Neanderthals raised in a Sapiens Sapiens dominated environment, would likly learn quite a bit of language by absorption. Give a few generations to select for the most linguistically adept...

Of corse that is removing the pressures that made them robust, strong and hardy.

An overcaste of Neanderthals, more mentally and linguistically flexible, thinner and taller and less hardy, maybe.

Of course as the Ice Age ended, the neanderthals would have migrated/survived in the north, maybe been reduced to a remnant population in hidden and inaccssible locations. Trolls.

A multiracial viking invasion in the dark ages?

 

[jolo]

With the knowledge I have so far about the Neandertals, I'd compare them to Lions: They lived in small groups, had a lot of infighting, and probably little tolerance for members of other groups. 250 000 years of dominating Europe and, under the right climate conditions, surrounding areas, left them pretty unafraid of any other beings - no shyness at all, similar to whales. When modern man arrived, the Neandertals were superior on a one-on-one level, even able to copy some of the newer weapons (as well as tools and cultural objects). They apparently even used complicated methods to glue their spears, among others. Lions with human intelligence and weapons.

Their small groups, combined with some bad weather, was probably their end: When Homo Sapiens attacked them, the survivors could only flee and struggle for survival without any help from other Neandertals. When Neandertals attacked modern humans, the survivors were often able to assemble large parties to hunt and kill the aggressors.

Still, the difference wasn't that big - several thousand years both groups lived pretty much together. The Neandertal was even able to expand into Homo Sapiens territory whenever the climate was suitable. I suppose a catastrophic way the ice age at the time of the extinction of the Neandertals happened had a lot to do with that.

Still I believe there was at least a little bit of mixing - because there still are people with extended eye brows, small chins, and other features usually associated with Neandertals among us.

Judging by those few specimen, the slight differences in looks (of those mixed beings) could even be ignored by society, except maybe the usual teasing among children in school, and beauty ideals among grown ups leading to some disadvantages (but maybe also advantages, due to "exotic" or "savage" looks). Neandertals in such a "mixed" environment would probably have the same jobs and the same capabilities.

If Neandertals survived as a distinct group, for instance by getting isolated on an isle due to the last ice age, and by developing a mistrust against Homo Sapiens which keeps them independent, they'd probably just be seen as a different race today - similar to the Aborigines, and with a lack of higher organisation.

Their hardiness might make them victim to slave traders and army recruiters. Their low population density due to reliance on hunting also is a disadvantage for them. Maybe they could learn from Homo Sapiens in this regard.

Unluckily, most of the isles in question were pretty void of humans until a few thousand or even hundred years ago - probably because of some big catastrophes in the last few thousand years. Not to mention the last 30 000 years.

 

[fhaessig]

IIRC, some recent theory have it thatn as they dwiddled, The neanderthals inbred with European Cro-Magnons, unlike what was prsumed up to then. Some DNA studies seem to bear that out. In short, we may all be ( part )neanderthals

 

[At-Bari]

Yeah, I have heard about that theory. But not all folks in Europe and West Asia, probably mostly people living in mountaionous regios like Iberia and Caucasus. Who knows? Could explain the tales about dwarfes and trolls. Or maybe not...

 

[WilyBadger]

Another interesting question is this: what if homo florensis (sp?... the Hobbit-type found in Indonesia), still exist today? What kind of havoc will that wreak upon world perspective? There's at least annocdotal evidence that they still are around, and if they aren't, they probably died out relatively recently. So what does it do to the world if we find a small population of them alive now?

 

[Fabilius]

Another interesting question is this: what if homo florensis (sp?... the Hobbit-type found in Indonesia), still exist today? What kind of havoc will that wreak upon world perspective? There's at least annocdotal evidence that they still are around, and if they aren't, they probably died out relatively recently. So what does it do to the world if we find a small population of them alive now?

Hmm... They could replace child labour. Small nimble hands... It´d be wrong but... I bet someone would do it if they´d be found before 20th century.

If they´d be found now, we would try to preserve them as much as possible and keep them going.

 

[Keenir]

Slave labor. Without question. From everything we know about them, Homo neanderthalensis were truly inferior,

Yes, because all those smart people are really really inferior.

 

[Keenir]

We do not really know much about the Neanderthals and their intelligence or capabilities. They do, however, seem to have been decidedly less adaptive and creative than us.

Not everything preserves equally well...some things get re-used into oblivion, while other things just get eaten by bugs and rodents.

Areas where they came into contact with us show that they were quite capable of adopting techniques and tools developed by us.

Paper was invented once....so clearly the Caucasians & other Europeans are less intelligent and less creative than the Sino-Tibetans and other Asians.

They do not seem to have had much capacity for original thinking though. I've heard that Neanderthals never made a sea voyage. Even when bountiful islands were within sight, they never went there.

Contrast that with Homo erectus, which had a smaller brain than either sapiens or neanderthal, and yet erectus was the one who settled hundreds of islands and corners of the globe.

Some people have advanced the theory that Neanderthals did not have a language capable of abstract concepts like us. No verbal transmission of culture skills and memories, means everything has to be transmitted by example, or learned all over again.

Given that every single primate has the ability to relay culture, skills, and knowledge, I find it implausible (to say the least) that the Neandertals would lack those very traits.

Of course, Neanderthals raised in a Sapiens Sapiens dominated environment, would likly learn quite a bit of language by absorption. Give a few generations to select for the most linguistically adept...

...and you'd get nowhere.

eugenics for skill and thoughts are a non-starter.

how many generations were cut down by the Mongols and Aztecs, yet there were no "docile-domesticated humans" in their territory.

Of corse that is removing the pressures that made them robust, strong and hardy.

how is being raised by sapiens removing the Ice Age?

 

[Keenir]

Still I believe there was at least a little bit of mixing - because there still are people with extended eye brows, small chins, and other features usually associated with Neandertals among us.

There are people nowadays with very long legs and elongate bodies...so clearly these are the evidence that sapiens bred with erectus.

and, opposite of the Masai end of the physical spectrum, there are nowadays people with very short and compact bodies....so clearly these are evidence of sapiens breeding with florensis(sp).
(though, how'd they get back to the Ituri forest? its a long way from Komodo)

 

[Dave Howery]

IIRC, some recent theory have it thatn as they dwiddled, The neanderthals inbred with European Cro-Magnons, unlike what was prsumed up to then. Some DNA studies seem to bear that out. In short, we may all be ( part )neanderthals

as I understood it, the latest DNA tests said we didn't have any Neanderthal genes, so no proof of interbreeding...

 

[Dynamitard]

This is a fascinating subject I think, with the subspecies of man surviving into the modern age. I read an article in Sci Fi Writers Magazine about the Flores man surviving to the modern age, but it only asked questions.
What I think would happen to these subspecies? Pets, unskilled workers, military, and other crappy jobs. Even if we could teach them, we probably wouldn't.