Smart man, though he may have been thinking along the lines of Quisling and others in removing the monarchies and local dissident, allowing themselves to live in luxury. His 'reign' in Salo had brought about comparisons to him being the Gaulietier of Lombardy. What do you guys feel that the Nazis may have done about the monarchy and papacy? I have read that the Bulgarian Tsar was the only monarch to hold Hitler's respect while he also figured that Roman Catholicism would be suffocated in the Greater Germanic Reich though would be let live in the less Germanic countries to the south.
Nazi Victory Views of Italians
- Thread starter Clandango
- Start date
Sorry to burst your bubble the Zero was a modern NAVAL fighter .
In China the japanese operated Ki-27 and Ki-43 fighters which were actually inferior designs compared with the P-40(C).
He got shot in the groin during the beer-hall putsch and got hooked on morphine & painkillers he was given. The rest was the result good living, gluttonous diet & age.
Like an evil Churchill.
As to the main subject, it depends when & how the war ends.
If Italy made a good show in North Africa and defeated the British single-handed, and give a good account of itself elsewhere. Then Italy would be a repected (though junior) partner in the Axis. If they had to be bailed out umpteen times they'd be barely tolerated.
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On 23 Dec. 1941 15 P-40s of 3d Sqdn. AVG (the 'Hell's Angels') reported they engaged "54 Mitsubishi twin-engine bombers, 8 Zeros, & 12 Nakajima Type-97 fighters" attempting to bomb Rangoon. (The Nakajima Type-97 was the same as the Ki-27.) The RAF was responsible for after-action reports in Burma, where this action took place. The RAF confirmed the size & composition of the Japanese force. The RAF also confirmed 25 a/c shot down by the AVG & 7 by the RAF. The AVG lost 3 a/c & 2 pilots that day compared to RAF losses of 11 a/c & 5 pilots.
On 25 Dec. "60 Mitsubishi twin-engine bombers, escorted by 32 fighters of indeterminate types" attempted to bomb Rangoon. They were intercepted by 12 P-40s of 3d Sqdn. AVG & 15 Brewster Buffalos of the RAF. After the action pilots reported engaging both Zeros & Nakajima Type-97 fighters, although numbers of each weren't available. At least 1 Zero was shot down by an AVG pilot. The RAF after-action report indicated 36 total Japanese a/c confirmed destroyed (19 AVG, 7 RAF, 10 shared or indeterminate) against AVG losses of 2 a/c & 0 pilots & RAF losses of 9 a/c & 6 pilots.
On 20 March 1942 "44 Mitsubishi twin-engine bombers escorted by 20 Zeros" attacked Magwe, in N. Burma. They were intercepted by an unknown number of P-40s of 3d Sqdn. AVG & RAF Hurricanes (accounts differ, & since Magwe was destroyed as an active base in this raid records are fragmentary).
(Reports are taken from Duane Schultz "The Maverick War", 1987 St. Martin's Press.)
At first glance, it appears that the AVG was in action against a mixture of Ki-27s & Zeros. Upon reflection, however, I find that the Ki-43 was referred to as the "Army Zero" because it was an almost identical airframe. The AVG & RAF reports of Zeros escorting bombers in Burma & China therefore may well have therefore referred to the Ki-43, & not to the Mitsubishi A-6/M, so I thank you for the correction, if not for the condescending manner in which you offered it.
J. R. Rossi, in "AFG: American Volunteer Group, The Flying Tigers", 1998 says that compared to the A-6/M Zero, "Japanese Army aircraft such as the Nakajima Ki-27 and Ki-43 were similarly maneuverable". Other authorities refer to the Ki-43 as "modern, fast, & highly maneuverable".
Ki-43
empty weight 1910kg
loaded weight 2590kg
max t/o weight 2925kg
cruise 440km/h
max 530km/h
range 1760km
armament 2 fixed forward-firing 12.7mm MG.
A-6/M
empty weight 1680kg
loaded weight 2410kg
cruise 333km/h
max 533km/h
range 3105km
armament 2 fixed forward-firing 7.7mm MG + 2 fixed forward-firing 20mm.
Comparing these 2 a/c, we find that they're similarly light & maneuverable, compared to the much heavier P-40...
P-40/B
empty weight 2535kg
loaded weight 3323kg
cruise ~400-445km/h
max 566km/h
range 1200km
armament 4 fixed forward-firing .30-cal. MG + 2 fixed forward-firing 12.7mm.
My description of AVG tactics was accurate, the context in which I used it was appropriate, & the reference to the Zero fighter was very much a side-issue. The fact remains that von Richthofen's tactics were far ahead of their time, Goering was an idiot for departing from them, & they were successfully copied by later combat leaders like Galland & Chennault.
BTW, until re-equipped with a few P-40/E replacement a/c towards the end of its combat tour, the AVG flew exclusively P-40/Bs, & not P-40/Cs as stated in your post. Sorry to pop your bubble.
--Thegn.
iddt3
Donor
In OTL, North Korea was the Prosperous and industrialized bit, while South Korea was the agrarian and poor bit. As time went on this obviously changed. I see no reason why we couldn't have a South Korea style South Italy.
Do you know how much of the Italian-American community came from Naples, Sardinia, and Sicily? Seems like a useful demographic to have the support of when Congress and the President muse over who gets how much foreign aid.
Burma is not China
(as I posted ) - but lets keep to politics as requested in this thread. And I fully agree on Mant err Richthofen
Paul MacQ
Monthly Donor
Drug addictions. He Georing was a rather tough customer up until the Putsch been known to get in with bare fists in public. Also pain of injury was with home for most of the rest of his life,
To quote the wiki
Hitler and the Nazi Party held mass meetings and rallies in Munich and elsewhere during this period, attempting to gain supporters in a bid for political power. Inspired by Benito Mussolini's March on Rome, the Nazis attempted to seize power on 8–9 November 1923 in a failed coup known as the Beer Hall Putsch. Göring, who was with Hitler heading up the march to the War Ministry, was shot in the leg. Fourteen Nazis and four policemen were killed; many top Nazis, including Hitler, were arrested.[24] With Carin's help, Göring was smuggled to Innsbruck, where he received surgery and was given morphine for the pain. He remained in hospital until 24 December. This was the beginning of his morphine addiction, which lasted until his imprisonment at Nuremberg.Meanwhile the authorities in Munich declared Göring a wanted man. The Görings—acutely short of funds and reliant on the good will of Nazi sympathizers abroad—moved from Austria to Venice. In May 1924 they visited Rome, via Florence and Siena. Göring met Mussolini, who expressed an interest in meeting Hitler, who was by then in prison.
Personal problems continued to multiply. By 1925, Carin's mother was ill. The Görings—with difficulty—raised the money in spring 1925 for a journey to Sweden via Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Danzig (now Gdańsk). Göring had become a violent morphine addict; Carin's family were shocked by his deterioration. Carin, who was ill with epilepsy and a weak heart, had to allow the doctors to take charge of Göring; her son was taken by his father. Göring was certified a dangerous drug addict and was placed in Långbro asylum on 1 September 1925. He was violent to the point where he had to be confined to a straitjacket, but his psychiatrist felt he was sane; the condition was caused solely by the morphine.[29] Weaned off the drug, he left the facility briefly, but had to return for further treatment. He returned to Germany when an amnesty was declared in 1927 and resumed working in the aircraft industry.[30] Hitler, who had written Mein Kampf while in prison, had been released in December 1924. Carin Göring, ill with epilepsy and tuberculosis,died of heart failure on 17 October 1931.
Later in the war 'racial' classification lost all sense of pseudoscience and became a fully political tool, as ideological restraints on whatever remained of their warped logic became to costly. Don't forget that a classification of 'Germanic' meant that they could recruit ideologically strongly motivated people to fight in the Waffen SS.
So, it all depends on how exactly Germany wins the war, and to what depths it had to go to achieve that victory. I'm not sure such late-war policy changes would still stay after a victory/stale-mate.
About he different areas: I haven't looked at any Nazi 'racial' maps in ages, but the north was looked upon more favourably than the south, especially Lombardy. Of course, plenty of other areas could claim to be 'Germanic' because of Norman or Gothic descent; it's just a matter of how far the Nazis were willing to go in accommodating those claims. So, it's back to politics, and thus back to how exactly the war was won.
That bit about people claiming to be descended from random Germanic invaders isn't made up, by the way, and was done quite commonly at that time. Thanks to the help of an absolutely brilliant and heroic German chap at the Nazi racial classification bureau in the occupied Netherlands (who saved hundreds of people my deliberately classifying as few as possible as Jews and so on), Dutch Sephardic Jews were almost considered to be of Vandalic Gothic descent. Sadly, almost.
