Napoleon in the Urals

[The Saint]

WI Napoleon had won decisively at Borodino, the Russian scorched earth policy was less effective, Moscow wasn't burned, the 1812 winter was not harsh, and Alexander I still refused to negotiate? How far east would Napoleon be prepared to go? Up to the Urals? The Volga? Beyond? With what result?

 

[Jammy]

Hi i'm new,
i think had those come into effect then Napoleon would have gone to the Urals, he would then have under his control a lot of the factorys and westernised Russia that produced the men (officers) and weapons of Russia.
I image he might free the Ukraine and set it up under the control of one of his marshals or brothers. With the Ukraine having freedom and being gratefull to him (also removing cossak threat) his south-east flank protected he would move one garrasoning (spelling??) the major citys.
If Bernadotte is king of Sweeden then it might also depend on him wheather he helps his old commander (in which case he might get Russian land) if not Napoleon might turn that way with his Grand Armee (still intact) and try and take sweeden denying Britain ofhte materials they need from the baltic.

Well that may not make any sense but its something of what i think

 

[Smaug]

Thats alot of what-ifs in my opinion. Pick one or two, and run with them. That at least would be feasible. just sayin

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

This would really take a lot of doing. Napoleon's army tended to supply itself through 'le maraude', getting supplies off the countryside. This worked fine in Germany and Central Europe, but the system broke down in Poland and Russia, where there was simply nothing to steal. The Grande Armee had already lost half its strength BEFORE it crossed to border of Russia, and by the time it reached Moscow, was a husk that would have been hard-pressed to fight any kind of battle.

WI Napoleon had won decisively at Borodino

Wouldn't matter, unless he somehow managed to capture the Tsar.

The Russian scorched earth policy was less effective

Russia was poor enough there wasn't much to burn. Napoleon might have taken less casualties, but the overall effect would have been the same.

Moscow wasn't burned

I don't know how much difference that would make. Napoleon might be in a little better shape for his retreat if he could winter there.

The 1812 winter was not harsh

Again, the retreat would go a little less badly. But it could hardly have gone worse.

Alexander I still refused to negotiate? How far east would Napoleon be prepared to go? Up to the Urals? The Volga? Beyond? With what result?

Finally, Napoleon wasn't interested in conquering Russia, just knocking them out of the war. If he'd magically succeeded in achieving all his objectives, then he probably would have just left Russia with a cooperative ruler and some harsh indemnities, allowing him to dominate Europe unquestioned. Unfortunately, he went into Russia without any kind of plan as to what he'd do when he won, so I imagine that they would just rise up in his rear a few years later, so his fate would be the same, just delayed.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Let's say, however, that Napoleon goes in with fully developed supply lines and a plan involving substantial recruitment from the indigenes for his Army as he goes along. By the time he's in Borodino the Army has increased by 50000 and is just getting winter uniforms along with letters from home.

Borodino is a smashing French victory, and Napoleon destroys the remnants of the Russian Army at the gates of Moscow. His army captures the Tsar in the Urals.

From a headquarters in the Urals Napoleon begins to put into action his plan to settle Siberia with immigrants from Eastern Europe and Russia, escorted into the area by the Russo-French Army, much like the settlement of the American West.

This becomes the second main pattern of of the Great Migration of the 19thc. By 1880 small towns and cities have dotted the Siberian and Alaskan wildernesses and gold from Nome is flooding the London exchanges.

 

[Johnnyreb]

I gloomily have to report there are other Russian armies apart from those before Moscow. And still others.

Actually, I understand the big N quite admired Alexander. He was very comlimentary about him after Tilsit. It's quite possible he would leave him in place, so long as Alexander did what he wanted.

The motive was to stop trade with Britain. By the way, Jammy, Britain was not getting supplies from the Baltic until the Invasion started. The shipbuilders were desperately short of timber, cordage, turpentine etc

 

[stevep]

Let's say, however, that Napoleon goes in with fully developed supply lines and a plan involving substantial recruitment from the indigenes for his Army as he goes along. By the time he's in Borodino the Army has increased by 50000 and is just getting winter uniforms along with letters from home.

Borodino is a smashing French victory, and Napoleon destroys the remnants of the Russian Army at the gates of Moscow. His army captures the Tsar in the Urals.

From a headquarters in the Urals Napoleon begins to put into action his plan to settle Siberia with immigrants from Eastern Europe and Russia, escorted into the area by the Russo-French Army, much like the settlement of the American West.

This becomes the second main pattern of of the Great Migration of the 19thc. By 1880 small towns and cities have dotted the Siberian and Alaskan wildernesses and gold from Nome is flooding the London exchanges.

NapoleonXIV

Actually, because of the difficulty in supplying forces off the land in Russia Napoleon did make very large efforts to supply his forces by the old traditional way of baggage trains and depots and the like. To a degree it worked but the problem was getting equipment to the troops at the front. Large dumps were in existence deep behind the lines but they were no good to the troops near Moscow. During the retreat this all fell apart.

I can't see any way he would have recruited more forces east of Poland nor would he have wanted to do so given he couldn't feed his existing forces.

Getting anywhere near the Urals would have been impossible, expect possibly as a guest of the Tsar after everything fell apart.

Steve

 

[fhaessig]

NapoleonXIV


Getting anywhere near the Urals would have been impossible, expect possibly as a guest of the Tsar after everything fell apart.

Steve

Actually, there is a way.

But it requires that Napoleon recognises that attacking Russia requires a different strategy that his usual, because of the sheer size of the Empire.

So, If Napoleon goes for limited aims each year, buiding up, and at the same time declares an end to serfdom, to incite a mujik revolution in allainec with the frenc, he can get to the Urals, in three to 5 years, is my guess.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Actually, there is a way.

But it requires that Napoleon recognises that attacking Russia requires a different strategy that his usual, because of the sheer size of the Empire.

So, If Napoleon goes for limited aims each year, buiding up, and at the same time declares an end to serfdom, to incite a mujik revolution in allainec with the frenc, he can get to the Urals, in three to 5 years, is my guess.

There would have to be pretty radical changes to the situation in Europe for Napoleon to be in the least bit interested in going to the Urals. To suggest that conquest of Russia was his goal at all is completely ignoring the facts of the Napoleonic wars.