Moscow Gold?

[naraic]

For those who don't know the greatest legitimate Gold heist of the the 20th century was the movement of the majority of the Spanish gold reserves to Moscow during the Spanish Civil War. The minority portion went to France in exchange for foreign currencies which also largely ended up in Moscow.

Technically this was "in payment" for Russian assistance to the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

Are there any good timelines where the Nationalists capture the gold reserves and end up paying Hitler and Mussolini for assistance. Or where the gold ends up staying in Spain. Or where the gold is used to buy imports from the UK or France boosting their arms industry early.

I'm just wondering if it has been explored at all.

I believe the total Spanish gold reserves was approx 700 tonnes with a total vllue of around $735 million dollars or approx £150 million sterling.

Did Stalin need these resources for the five year plans.

 

[thaddeus]

my understanding the German shipments of weapons (and other?) totaled approx 200m (IIRC, that figure is calculated in US dollars.) not certain how you can relate all the numbers to one another? probably safe to say the Nationalists got a bargain as they "paid" less and on "credit."

France did not want to become involved more deeply and/or become the chief arms supplier because they felt it would provoke their own civil war.

think for the Soviets they were kind of "frozen out" of international trade, and the gold provided some liquidity.

 

[naraic]

my understanding the German shipments of weapons (and other?) totaled approx 200m (IIRC, that figure is calculated in US dollars.) not certain how you can relate all the numbers to one another? probably safe to say the Nationalists got a bargain as they "paid" less and on "credit."

What if the nationalists got the gold though and Italy and Germany got paid for their support. Is there timeliness around here where that is explored in detail?

Would the money be reinvested in their military? What effect would this have by the start of WW2?

 

[thaddeus]

What if the nationalists got the gold though and Italy and Germany got paid for their support. Is there timeliness around here where that is explored in detail?

Would the money be reinvested in their military? What effect would this have by the start of WW2?

have never seen a timeline or alt.history wherein the (future) Axis Powers gained the Spanish gold reserves.

you are dealing with a very special set of circumstances when the Republican government shipped their entire remaining gold reserves to the USSR, just IMO the Nationalist cabal of military officers would not do similar?

if the Nationalist side were in a position to control the gold, they have either executed a swift, successful coup or advanced so rapidly to block any shipment overseas? thus the entire civil war is shorter and they would not need to expend so much on weapons and materials.

as you said "Spain was robbed"

think the timeline you are seeking is what would happen to a Nationalist Spain that retained most of their country's gold reserves? (and not ravaged by years of civil war)

depending on which general ends up ruling they might be more inclined to join WWII.

 

[naraic]

It's just a potentially underused pod. I guess given thtt you are the only person answering that most people don't think so.

I feel that there has to be something interesting out there on it.

As to if the Nationalists would have shipped the gold to Italy and Germany I was thinking more along the lines of Italy and Germany refusing to sell on credit if the nationalists could buy for gold.

A more legitimate element of the Republicans ending up in charge shipping gold to France or UK either in trade or just evacuating the gold could also be interesting.

 

[thaddeus]

It's just a potentially underused pod. I guess given thtt you are the only person answering that most people don't think so.

I feel that there has to be something interesting out there on it.

As to if the Nationalists would have shipped the gold to Italy and Germany I was thinking more along the lines of Italy and Germany refusing to sell on credit if the nationalists could buy for gold.

A more legitimate element of the Republicans ending up in charge shipping gold to France or UK either in trade or just evacuating the gold could also be interesting.

do not think a lot of people realize what a pot of gold we are discussing, couple that with the fact Spain was the most likely neutral country to enter the war? could be a huge change, more of a change if the civil war is somehow eclipsed or shortened (as having a pot of gold would not remedy all the damage from that)

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Is it enough money to really alter the course of world history?

 

[The Byronic Hero]

have never seen a timeline or alt.history wherein the (future) Axis Powers gained the Spanish gold reserves.

There was this ASB timeline where time travelers helped the Nazis. One of their actions was seizing the Spanish gold in port before it sailed for Moscow. Wish I could remember it.

 

[Rognvald]

Is it enough money to really alter the course of world history?

Looking at it, the value given in OP is in 1936 dollars. Today, that gold would be worth upwards of 12 billion dollars. A princely sum!

If the Spanish retained that gold, they avoid the currency issues of the later 1930s; other than that, I’m not sure where things would go from there.

 

[naraic]

Is it enough money to really alter the course of world history?

700 million dollars or 150 million pounds worth of gold.

It's more than a years defense spending for Germany or Britain or France in the late 30s.

We always have posts on this forum what if Germany had a 100 extra subs or what if Britain had started expanding their remilitarisation a year early. The answer always runs into resources but this would be resources for anyone to have a massive step up in 1939.

I think it could be a good pod for a wide range of time lines.

Whether Spain keeps the gold, it ends up with the Axis powers or it ends up in the Allies I think it could have a massive effect by 39.

 

[Julius Vogel]

How does USSR look without that £150m? That must have paid for a lot of imported grain and machine tools

 

[thaddeus]

Is it enough money to really alter the course of world history?

my speculation was centered around whether a (relatively) wealthy Spain might enter WWII, it was at least a consideration historically when they were a wreck.

How does USSR look without that £150m? That must have paid for a lot of imported grain and machine tools

my understanding they were in pretty dire economic isolation, dire circumstances for them does not mean a reduced GDP but rather tilting over into famine?

 

[Locke01]

How does USSR look without that £150m? That must have paid for a lot of imported grain and machine tools

My understanding is that the Spanish gold was deposited in the Moscow State Bank and left untouched. USSR had plenty of gold as the Kolyma mines were onstream by this time, and the country was a major exporter of the metal, helping to finance Stalin's military buildup.

 

[YYJ]

I heard somewhere that the Anarchist factions of the Republic learned of this planned transfer and made a plan of their own to take "their portion," however they calculated that, and had pulled a battalion out of the line to help with the heist, but for some reason did not go through.

 

[El Pip]

My understanding is that the Spanish gold was deposited in the Moscow State Bank and left untouched. USSR had plenty of gold as the Kolyma mines were onstream by this time, and the country was a major exporter of the metal, helping to finance Stalin's military buildup.

BIS records show soviet gold exports increasing by roughly the same amount as the Spanish gold in subsequent years, then dropping back by 1940.

Maybe the exact bars weren't sold, not until the Republic had finally lost perhaps, but in net terms they got sold.

 

[thaddeus]

My understanding is that the Spanish gold was deposited in the Moscow State Bank and left untouched. USSR had plenty of gold as the Kolyma mines were onstream by this time, and the country was a major exporter of the metal, helping to finance Stalin's military buildup.

BIS records show soviet gold exports increasing by roughly the same amount as the Spanish gold in subsequent years, then dropping back by 1940.

Maybe the exact bars weren't sold, not until the Republic had finally lost perhaps, but in net terms they got sold.

my understanding the Soviet gold mining was relatively high cost (even with essentially slave labor) so a windfall (equivalent to) several years production is significant?

sorry I'm not able to articulate this properly or clearly, it was more the fact the Soviet economy was "frozen out" of international trade and banking, and had to carry out cumbersome barter agreements, and the Spanish scenario helped them gain some "liquidity."

There Must Be Moscow Gold

The Soviets knew good money when they saw it: gold.

www.forbes.com

(good summary article, maybe a little harsh on the Soviet armaments delivered? probably trying to produce as best they could?)

 

[Locke01]

BIS records show soviet gold exports increasing by roughly the same amount as the Spanish gold in subsequent years, then dropping back by 1940.

Maybe the exact bars weren't sold, not until the Republic had finally lost perhaps, but in net terms they got sold.

Intetesting. Thanks for the correction.