Morgenthau's Germany

[JSmith]

So relations between the West and the Soviet Union are better during and post WW2 . So instead of Germany looking like this post WW2

Political borders of post-World War II Germany (1949). West Germany is shown in Blue, East Germany is shown in Red, The Saar protectorate under French economic control is shown in Green. The Ruhr Area, the industrial engine of West Germany, is shown in brown as it was under the control of the International Authority for the Ruhr. Pre-war German territory east of the Oder-Neisse line is shown in Gray, as it was assigned/annexed to Poland and the Soviet Union. West Berlin is shown in Yellow as it was formally under occupation by the Allies until 1990.

The Morgenthau Plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan or something like it is instituted and Germany looks like this





The (1944) U.S. "Morgenthau Plan" showing the planned partitioning of Germany into a North State, a South State, and an International zone. Areas in grey are areas intended for annexation by France, Poland and the U.S.S.R. (Today Russia).
The background template used for this image was the following fre license image: File:GermanyMorgenthau.PNG
The Modification of the map, in order to portray the dismemberment of Germany as envisioned by the U.S.A. government under the name of the "Morgenthau Plan", was done by as closely as possible following the borders shown on the following two maps.
http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/box31/a297a09.html http://zis.uibk.ac.at:81/zisneu/dokumente/karten/2.php Both show in effect the same, but the second has workable scanning resolution.
Stor stark7 23:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The text corresponding to the map is as follows: http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/box31/t297a01.html
2. Partitioning of Germany.
(a) Poland should get that part of East Prussia which doesn't go to the U.S.S.R. and the southern portion of Silesia as indicated on the attached map, (Appendix A).
(b) France should get the Saar and the adjacent territories bounded by the Rhine and the Moselle Rivers.
(c) As indicated in part 3 an International zone should be created containing the Ruhr and the surrounding industrial areas.
(d) The remaining portion of Germany should be divided into two autonomous, independent states, (1) a South German state comprising Bavaria, Wuerttemberg, Baden and some smaller areas and (2) a North German state comprising a large part of the old state of Prussia, Saxony, Thuringia and several smaller states.
There shall be a custom union between the new South German state and Austria, which will be restored to her pre-1938 political borders.
3. The Ruhr Area. (The Ruhr, surrounding industrial areas, as shown on the attached map, including the Rhineland, the Kiel Canal, and all German territory north of the Kiel Canal.)
Here lies the heart of German industrial power, the cauldron of wars. This area should not only be stripped of all presently existing industries but so weakened and controlled that it can not in the fore- seeable future become an industrial area. The following steps will accomplish this:
(a) Within a short period, if possible not longer than 6 months after the cessation of hostilities, all industrial plants and equipment not destroyed by military action shall either be completely dismantled and removed from the area or completely destroyed. All equipment shall be removed from the mines and the mines shall be thoroughly wrecked.
It is anticipated that the stripping of this area would be accomplished in three stages:
(i) The military forces immediately upon entry into the area shal destroy all plants and equipment which cannot be removed.
(ii) Removal of plants and equipment by members of the United Nations as restitution and reparation (Paragraph 4).
(iii) All plants and equipment not removed within a stated period of time, say 6 months, will be completely destroyed or reduced to scrap and allocated to the United Nations.
(b) All people within the area should be made to understand that this area will not again be allowed to become an industrial area. Accordingly, all people and their families within the area having special skills or technical training should be encouraged to migrate permanently from the area and should be as widely dispersed as possible.
(c) The area should be made an international zone to be governed by an international security organization to be established by the United Nations. In governing the area the international organization should be guided by policies designed to further the above stated objectives.

or this




Other discussed partition plan proposals (variant North German State, South German State and large Danube Federation (Austria, Hungary and Czechoslovakia) plus annexation of German border areas by the Netherlands (Dutch annexation of German territory after World War II), Denmark(Schleswig), Poland, USSR, Luxembourg, Belgium and France)







What happens when Soviet/West relations go sour or what happens if they stay good?

 

[Opunium]

What are the form of Goverments? How do the Soviets and Americans handle North Germany and the Danubefederation (both occupied by America and Russia). Are they allowed to go 'Austria' (Neutrality)? Or are they divided with one becoming Communist and one democratic. Please clarify that, then we can discuss their relations (and all other sorts of things about these countries and the international zones and annexed areas.

 

[Bob in Pittsburgh]

Either way I think the Soviet Union comes out better. Without the rebuilt West Germany the demarcation between East and West becomes more burdensome for the West. As we know the Red Army did a very good job of taking anything of military or industrial value back home. Areas under Red Army Control would become Communist puppet states. On the Western side NATO or whatever form of collective security develops lacks the military and industrial power of West Germany. I would also expect that the residents of South Germany and the International zone would be substantially less supportive of NATO. We can never forget that Stalin was as determined to conqueror the world as Adolph but was a whole lot smarter.

 

[JSmith]

What are the form of Goverments? How do the Soviets and Americans handle North Germany and the Danubefederation (both occupied by America and Russia). Are they allowed to go 'Austria' (Neutrality)? Or are they divided with one becoming Communist and one democratic. Please clarify that, then we can discuss their relations (and all other sorts of things about these countries and the international zones and annexed areas.

Well in the situation I'm thinking about this is almost a secondary question. The purpose of the Morgenthau plan was basically to completely remove Germany as a military threat and to punish Germans for WW2. OTL the need to use Germany as a shield/pawn in the emerging Cold War made doing this not feasible-especially for the West. But in the ATL the tensions between the West and the Soviet Union are at a minimum so the focus is on dividing Germany and punishing Germans. The forms of government will be considered later but likely will take a form similar to which power id strongest on the ground-as per OTL.

 

[JSmith]

Either way I think the Soviet Union comes out better.

And the Germans worse than OTL right?

 

[Vingilótë]

And the Germans worse than OTL right?

In the form of twenty million or so additional corpses relative to OTL, yes.

Everybody else, too, to an extent, in large part, delays to European reconstruction were triggered by delays in the German reconstruction, due to Germany being the industrial powerhouse of Europe.

 

[JSmith]

In the form of twenty million or so additional corpses relative to OTL, yes.

Well is it possible to not let that many Germans starve or freeze but still keep them unidustrialized and poor compared to OTL?

 

[Vingilótë]

Well is it possible to not let that many that many Germans starve or freeze but still keep them unidustrialized and poor compared to OTL?

That was more or less Hoover's own estimate, if Germany became an unindustrialized country. The reason was that fundamentally, agricultural techniques and technology at the time with Germany's land at the time could only support 2/3 of Germany's population, and Germany's population was around 20-25 million too large for that. Before the war, Germany made up the difference by importing food (and fertilizer, I think. This also means that Germany won't be anywhere near the theoretical maximum) using foreign exchange earned from export. If you only have the means to produce or import 2/3 as much food as before, the other 1/3 of the people are in for a rather shitty time.

You'd have agricultural techniques and technology in the future which would bring Germany's population back up to the level it was at in 1945, but there was a slight problem in that those only existed in the future.

 

[jmc247]

And the Germans worse than OTL right?

If you consider angry uneducated starving feudal peasants bad then yes.

 

[JSmith]

If you consider angry uneducated starving feudal peasants bad then yes.

Well thats not what I was going for either -more like not as well off as the average Westerner and only as well off or a little less than the average Soviet by the 1970's ?

 

[Vingilótë]

Well thats not what I was going for either -more like not as well off as the average Westerner and only as well off or a little less than the average Soviet by the 1970's ?

All communist Germany might be your best bet.

 

[JSmith]

All communist Germany might be your best bet.

But not as a complete Soviet puppet-more like Yugoslavia but ore democratic due to lingering Western influence ?

 

[JSmith]

Any other ideas or exisiting timeline on this topic ?

 

[Maniakes]

The alternatives to mass starvation would be mass emigration or large-scale food aid. The latter is unlikely, since in the short term the allies can barely afford food aid to deal with war devestation, and in the long term food aid wrecks agrarian economies.

The mass emigration possibility is pretty interesting from an AH perspective. A large influx of German immigrants would put a significant stamp on the culture of whichever countries they would go to, probably similar to the effect of the 19th century Irish Diaspora on American culture.

The big question is, where would the Germans go? America's an obvious possibility: a rich country with plenty of room, a tradition of immigration, and a significant existing German immigrant population. Next most likely would be various neutral countries.

 

[Uruk]

South America? Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Uruguay are probably willing and able to absorb a significant portion.

South Africa? Dont know how willing Australia would be to accept a large German influx in the immediate post war period.

Sweden is probably willing to take some but that number even if it meant a large German minority would probably not even make a dent in the overall numbers.

 

[JSmith]

The alternatives to mass starvation would be mass emigration or large-scale food aid. The latter is unlikely, since in the short term the allies can barely afford food aid to deal with war devestation, and in the long term food aid wrecks agrarian economies.

The mass emigration possibility is pretty interesting from an AH perspective. A large influx of German immigrants would put a significant stamp on the culture of whichever countries they would go to, probably similar to the effect of the 19th century Irish Diaspora on American culture.

The big question is, where would the Germans go? America's an obvious possibility: a rich country with plenty of room, a tradition of immigration, and a significant existing German immigrant population. Next most likely would be various neutral countries.

Perhaps we have a little of both-food aid and mass emigration. Also some basic industry mostly related to food production and distribution is allowed to exist. As far as the emigrants -anyone who was in the Nazi party or fought for the Wehrmacht is forbidden to leave?

 

[user23123]

Perhaps we have a little of both-food aid and mass emigration. Also some basic industry mostly related to food production and distribution is allowed to exist. As far as the emigrants -anyone who was in the Nazi party or fought for the Wehrmacht is forbidden to leave?

OTL food industry was generally spared after the war,as for food aid the allies them self have food problems,and there was a food relief program that included Germany after a while. As for emigration is the question of how do you move a few millions in a short period of time where do you accommodate them.All this takes time and resources.Do the allies want to spend time and resources for that.

As far as the emigrants -anyone who was in the Nazi party or fought for the Wehrmacht is forbidden to leave?

There was a general mobilization in Germany during the war,that means that any man age 15->50 and able was drafted,this means the will be exclude form be allow to leave,and then there are the women how here drafted in home defense,and there are those how work in industries that where put under military control during the war,and then those how work in industries that,where not under direct military control but produce for the military to,there will be excluded to. And for the Nazi party,every kid (boy or girl) in Germany during Hitler was enroll by default (was mandatory) in the Hitler-Youth who was a party organization.so thy are excluded to.I believe the exceptions where if you where of a lower race or have a handicap,

 

[user23123]

(a) Poland should get that part of East Prussia which doesn't go to the U.S.S.R. and the southern portion of Silesia as indicated on the attached map, (Appendix A).

Did heaped otl so no change

(b) France should get the Saar and the adjacent territories bounded by the Rhine and the Moselle Rivers.

Way would some one give to France tows territories ? I know that at the time there was (and probably still is) this perception that Germany attacked France 3 times but it was France how declared war on Germany every time and had there ass kicked every time.And in case some one wonders:

1 There was the Franco-Prussian war how was started by France for the fear of a strong Germany,
2 There was the First World War in which France again declared war on Germany under the reason of helping an ally (Russia),but was an act of revenge for the Franco-Prussian war,and got there ass all-most kicked the where save by the British and have the Germans push back with the help from the Americans.
3 The Second World War,again as in the first one,the only difference is that in this one the France plan was for France to sit behind the Maginot_wall and let the British fight the Germans in Belgium.But the Germans tick them and kicked there ass.And then there is the comportment of France during the pace between the wars.

The solution could have been if France keep insisting on that, for Alsace-Lorene and Saar+the Rest to be split from both France and Germany and form in to a new country or be given a vote how do the wanna join.
And then there is the economy and Germans are better at it then the French,and since the cold war was a economic war you weaken the allies position in it,and there will be a cold war since the soviets and the W-Allies where allies of convenience.

(c) As indicated in part 3 an International zone should be created containing the Ruhr and the surrounding industrial areas.

Economy the early will not produce as much under an international body as it will under German control,as soon as the Germans are allowed to.

(d) The remaining portion of Germany should be divided into two autonomous, independent states, (1) a South German state comprising Bavaria, Wuerttemberg, Baden and some smaller areas and (2) a North German state comprising a large part of the old state of Prussia, Saxony, Thuringia and several smaller states.
There shall be a custom union between the new South German state and Austria, which will be restored to her pre-1938 political borders.

How the heck controls North Germany is the Soviets or the allies ?

3. The Ruhr Area. (The Ruhr, surrounding industrial areas, as shown on the attached map, including the Rhineland, the Kiel Canal, and all German territory north of the Kiel Canal.)
Here lies the heart of German industrial power, the cauldron of wars. This area should not only be stripped of all presently existing industries but so weakened and controlled that it can not in the fore- seeable future become an industrial area. The following steps will accomplish this:
(a) Within a short period, if possible not longer than 6 months after the cessation of hostilities, all industrial plants and equipment not destroyed by military action shall either be completely dismantled and removed from the area or completely destroyed. All equipment shall be removed from the mines and the mines shall be thoroughly wrecked.
It is anticipated that the stripping of this area would be accomplished in three stages:
(i) The military forces immediately upon entry into the area shal destroy all plants and equipment which cannot be removed.
(ii) Removal of plants and equipment by members of the United Nations as restitution and reparation (Paragraph 4).
(iii) All plants and equipment not removed within a stated period of time, say 6 months, will be completely destroyed or reduced to scrap and allocated to the United Nations.
(b) All people within the area should be made to understand that this area will not again be allowed to become an industrial area. Accordingly, all people and their families within the area having special skills or technical training should be encouraged to migrate permanently from the area and should be as widely dispersed as possible.
(c) The area should be made an international zone to be governed by an international security organization to be established by the United Nations. In governing the area the international organization should be guided by policies designed to further the above stated objectives.

This was done (destruction and striping) ,OTL,but the process was stopped after the allies realized that they are hurting them self too.the only thing that was generally spared in Germany was food industry.
The areas economy which was the heart of German economy and the German economy in general how was(is) the heart of European economy.destroying it will be to put Europe on permanent life support,which means that U.S. will have to give aid to Europe on a massive scale for the rest of the fore- seeable or hold a gun at the heads of every one in Europe (possibly both) or accept the possible lost of both France and Italy (to speak only of the big ones) to communism and the soviets.

What happens when Soviet/West relations go sour or what happens if they stay good?

In will start (the cold war) since there where allies of convince (Hitler and the Nazis) and ideological opponents.and what will happen US or gives (speeds) a shitload of money and manpower on keeping Europe or they abandon it.So you end up with a communist Europe and after it collapses with a Europe that is more sympathetic to the Nazis.

 

[altamiro]

Perhaps we have a little of both-food aid and mass emigration. Also some basic industry mostly related to food production and distribution is allowed to exist. As far as the emigrants -anyone who was in the Nazi party or fought for the Wehrmacht is forbidden to leave?

The point was however not "the food industry" but "the industry producing things for export so food could be bought from outside".
As soon as even a moderate conflict for influence (let's say on the level between present-day Russia and the West) begins between the Western Allies and USSR - no full scale Cold War needed - the Germans will desert to the side that promises them abolishing the Morgenthau Plan restrictions faster than you can say "Red Square".

 

[Maniakes]

Perhaps we have a little of both-food aid and mass emigration. Also some basic industry mostly related to food production and distribution is allowed to exist. As far as the emigrants -anyone who was in the Nazi party or fought for the Wehrmacht is forbidden to leave?

As a practical matter, the Allies should want the broad base of the Nazi party members and Wehrmacht veterans scattered far and wide, so they're nowhere near a majority anywhere. Only people wanted for specific war crimes charges should be prevented from emigrating.