More Germanic Europe post-Rome?

[Peter]

Following the breakdown of Rome the Germanic conquerors generally followed a process of what could be called tribal bifurcation (my term). Having adopted both the language and religion of the defeated Empire the German elite established themselves as the new aristocracy, seating themselves at the top of the feudal society that was already developing, while the rest of the tribe assimilated into the masses of the people within a few generations. By the time of Charlemagne you can hardly refer to the Franks as a people, what remained was simply a latinized, Catholic aristocracy, which had significantly intermarried with their old Roman counter-parts.

Compare this to England, were there was a complete linguistic, cultural and religious replacement, as well as a big genetic one ("A 2002 study from University College London was interpreted as showing the possibility of large scale Anglo-Saxon migration to central and eastern England, accounting for 50–100% of the population in Central England."- Wiki). This must clearly be the effect of the Anglo-Saxons retaining their tribal integrity and largely dispossessing the previous inhabitants: taking their land, their women and stripping them of their right, allowing their own tribe to explode demographically/assimilate the natives.

How do we get a similar effect in, say, France and northern Italy? I think a key ingredient would be to make sure that Christianity never became the state religion since I suspect that was a neccesary condition for the Germanic elites to assimilate into post-Roman society rather then replacing it.

 

[Berserker]

the religion part may aply for the Saxons or the Franks, but the Goths, Vandals and Bourgondians where all arian christians.

 

[The Professor]

The problem is that the Frankish Conquest of Gaul is not comparable to the "Germanic Conquest" of Britain - the genetic evidence suggests the population of the invaders was equal or higher than that of the Britons; possibly due to the Plague of Justinian.
The Frankish Conquest was more like the Norman Conquest of England - a minority of invaders displacing the aristocracy.

In order to get a Frankish Conquest of Gaul akin to the Germanic Settlement of Britain we need to reduce the population disparity.

 

[Peter]

the religion part may aply for the Saxons or the Franks, but the Goths, Vandals and Bourgondians where all arian christians.

True, but Arianism is still less alien then paganism and might to some degree promote assimilation.

Of course, its not like England was the only place to be Germanized, the same is true of the Rhineland, Bavaria and Austria. But if you consider the Slavic invasions of the Balkan it seems to me that the potential for Germanization is greater then the historical outcome.

http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/empire/extent/rome-empire-modern-nations-01.jpg

The professor: Do you have a source for those population numbers? It doesn't agree with what I have read.

Now, I'm not asking for a scenario were there is a complete ethnic replacement. Naturally, thats impossibe. But rather an assimilation of the natives into the invader rather then the other way around. And for that to be possible I think the key is to construct a social system that benefits the entire invading the tribe at the expense of the conquered, rather then just the elite. There has been speculation that that was pretty much what happened in England, that some kind of Anglo-Saxon apartheid allowed the Anglo-Saxon proportion to increase at the expense of the natives. As I'm sure you know pre-industrial populations tends to explode as long as there is available farmland, never mind if its available at someone else's expense. The French Canadians for example have multiplied by a factor x100 from their founding population due to this effect.

 

[The Professor]

Admittedly I can no longer find the original citations (as I no longer have access to academic papers) but I recall they were based on those genetic studies of England in and referenced the decline of agriculture and the Justinian Plague.

(NB the wikipedia links show the latest studies which weren't my orignal sources )

It would be helpful to read those sources you have read if they are stating the opposite re population of Post Roman Britain.

 

[kasumigenx]

Actually, Northern France could get Germanized had Aquitaine and Northern France gone separate ways or Northern France is attached to Germany in the treaty of Verdun.

 

[Peter]

One way to increase Germanization would to have Rome collapse during the Crisis of the Third Century. This would be before the rise of Christianity (which likely worked both to romanize the Germans and keep the world of the Romans from completely disintegrating due to to the unifying, international institution of the Church) before the rise of familiarity between Germans and Romans due to German military service for the Empire. Such a decreased familiarity is likely to lead to a situation similar to what happened in the Balkans, were the Slavs simply wiped away the pre-existing, alien Greco-Roman culture. At one point almost turning Greece itself Slavic!

In my country's military we have a saying: What you don't understand, you destroy.

 

[Kalan]

A possible option would be to make Attila's reign more brutal and longlasting. Say he wins the battle a the catalaunian fields and plunders and pillages France leading to a severe depopulation. In the next year he invades Italy (as he did IOTL) but with much stronger forces as he was never defeated. Thus Aetius is unable to stop him (if you want to be really nasty Aetius died on the catalaunian fields) and Attila thourougly destroys the north Italy and sacks rome weakening the catholic church (which would through its use of Latin help to romanize the germanic tribes).

All this leads to a drastically lower romanic population in Italy and France and the destruction of various Roman institutions. Making it easier for the germanic peoples to retain their identity.

 

[iori]

Prior to WWI Europe was pretty damned Germanicized, I mean outside of the several Germanic language countries you had large, long established German communities ranging from the Rhine to the Urals, as can be seen in the atattched map, further more the Goths actually lasted until the 18th century in Eastern Europe, specifically the Crimean Goths, who wnet extinct soemtime mid century.

 

[Russian]

One way to increase Germanization would to have Rome collapse during the Crisis of the Third Century. This would be before the rise of Christianity (which likely worked both to romanize the Germans and keep the world of the Romans from completely disintegrating due to to the unifying, international institution of the Church) before the rise of familiarity between Germans and Romans due to German military service for the Empire. Such a decreased familiarity is likely to lead to a situation similar to what happened in the Balkans, were the Slavs simply wiped away the pre-existing, alien Greco-Roman culture. At one point almost turning Greece itself Slavic!

Yes, good point. In the third century familiarity between Germans and Romans due to German military service for the Empire was less than in the fifth century. So the chances for the Germans to avoid romanisation were somewhat higher.

But it was not that simple. When Caesar invaided Gaul it was already under some kind of the German domination: the Germans headed by the 'rex' Ariovistus started to form the ruling elite of these Celtic tribes. And these Germans did not destroy local economy and did not depopulate the country - they enjoyed the fruits of (rather relatively) 'peacefull' exploitation. These Germans did not push the Gauls away and the did not germanize them.
The same pattern might have been established if the Germans had conquered the Roman Empire in the III century A.D.

A possible option would be to make Attila's reign more brutal and longlasting. Say he wins the battle a the catalaunian fields and plunders and pillages France leading to a severe depopulation. In the next year he invades Italy (as he did IOTL) but with much stronger forces as he was never defeated. Thus Aetius is unable to stop him (if you want to be really nasty Aetius died on the catalaunian fields) and Attila thourougly destroys the north Italy and sacks rome weakening the catholic church (which would through its use of Latin help to romanize the germanic tribes).

All this leads to a drastically lower romanic population in Italy and France and the destruction of various Roman institutions. Making it easier for the germanic peoples to retain their identity.

That's a good point as well. I mean that would help our purpose to make Europe more Germanic if Attila had killed more Romans.
But there is one more thing which Attila could do - kill as many as possible of the Germans historically familiar with the Empire and thus able and willing to cooperate with the local Romans. So Attila annihilates the Franks, Burgundians, Goths etc. who were happy to leave the Romans be and enjoyed exploiting them as the ruling elite.
After Attila dies there is a great disorder and vacuum of power in Gaul Spain and Italy. And the wild German tribes infamiliar with the Empire from the depths of dark forests from far from Rhine invade to fill in and they do what the Anglo-Saxons did in Britain. They make post-Roman Europe more Germanic.

 

[Marko]

Also there recent excavations show that the interior of the Balkans outside the urban centres wasn't really romanised in a way we see in Gaul or Hispania and the cultures if not the languages of the locals weren't that much different from the settling Slavs allowing for a much easier assimilation. More to the point that Slavs were a minority during the settlement and those descended from the people linked geneticaly to the migrating Slavic populations of the 6th and 7th century are still a minority in current populations of the Balkans. The funniest thing is that the population that has the most descentandts from the medieval Slavs doesn't even speak Slavic but Hungarian

 

[Berus]

dont let a roman church happen, and maybe a earlier collaps of Rome (around 100 AD or even earlier). The Germanic people could probably assimilate the population of Gaul. Gaul had a quite high population tough, so it might take a while till they are fully germanized. especially if the language of the germanic invaders gets more prestige and gets more important than latin, i think then it is possible however. I am sure same is also possible for Northern italy.

 

[Zuvarq]

The Anglo-Saxons having replaced the Celts, like the Slavs replacing the Greeks or the Turks replacing Anatolian Greeks, or even the Celts replacing those who were there before them, are largely misconceptions. Almost every conquest outside of the Western Hemisphere only left a few percentage points or less of genetic influence on the conquered area.

Of course a lot of the studies are politically motivated in some way. And for the ones taking place in Europe, Europeans are one of the least diverse groups in the Old World.

 

[Peter]

Well the primary issue here is cultural replacement, not genetic.

However, it should be noted that the post-war, marxist-inspired orthodoxy of acculturation has been challenged in the last decade or so by the application of genetics and the subsequent return of migrationism. It is now (for example) quite clear that the the Neolithic came to Europe with a new people, with the old Mesolithics being pushed aside for a thousand years and then assimilated. (Pääbo et al.)

This is not very surprising of course, why would genetic replacement start with Columbus (i.e. with reliable historiography)?

 

[PlayerOne]

In my country's military we have a saying: What you don't understand, you destroy.

W-which country is this...?

 

[Peter]

The very un-War-like kingdom of the Swedes.

 

[Berus]

that motto, would be important if germans (depends which ones, i just say germanic as example) have to assimialte others.
the slavs more or less destroyed/assimilated other cultures they invaded like on the balkans or even in Russia/Poland, which were inhabited by baltic people before.
Ther Germanic people rather etablished them as elite but adapted to the culture they conquered, i think they even outlawed marriages between them and the local people, like the franks adopting romance, but with some frankish influences. maybe if they be less influenced by romans, then they could manage to germanize them over time, maybe intermarry with local woman, get many children and raise those germanic, etablish major villages and centres which are dominated by Germanics.