More divided post-British India

Skallagrim

Banned
The most viable way to have a "post-Raj" India that is meaningfully divided, it seems to me, is to set up a scenario where decolonisation is delayed and Britain isn't weakened and distracted by other developments. (Obviously, there are answers as well, such as "no Raj in the first place", but those invariably seem to go against the central question.)

As usual, the good old "no world wars" suffices. The blow to the European empires that was dealt by the First World War in particular can hardly be over-estimated. The Second World War thus saw the stage quite prepared for independence movements to arise-- and indeed they did. After that, the genie was out of the bottle, and couldn't be forced back in. Holding on to India had become in impossibility. In this context, the British weren't quite the Machiavellian schemers playing at 'divide et impera' that some Indian nationalists have pained them to be (British policy was far too muddled for that to be true), but it certainly was understood that an independent Muslim state would serve the British interest. Playing off multiple states against each other would be more conducive to maintaining a British foothold (in the form of indirect influence) than facing a post-colonial India consisting of essentially the whole former Raj.

Now, for the ATL scenario. No World Wars. This doesn't change the fact that colonialism is going to run out of time. There are naturally ways to maintain an Empire, but no matter which way you turn, this requires steps Britain wouldn't be able or willing to take. (Option one is ruthless oppression; whatever you may say of the British Empire, I don't see them going "full Draka", and to keep an unwilling India under your heel, you'd have to. Option two is full -- or nearly full, in any case -- representation of India in an Imperial Federation; I don't see the Brits willing to become a minor state within an Indian Empire, and that would be the certain outcome. Option three is a "Commonwealth Plus" arrangement, with an India under home rule but still involved in the Empire/Commonwealth to a considerable degree; this is the only viable way, but I observe that European nations didn't have the clarity of mind to go for it in OTL, even when it was a realistic option-- as such, I don't pin my hopes on this outcome.)

That leaves a delayed but still inevitable decolonisation. By this point, pressure has been building steadily. Not hit by the World Wars, and able to dedicate its full attention, Britain will have gotten used to suppressing the dissent. Since crushing it ruthlessly isn't a viable long-term strategy, I'd expect there to be more 'divide et impera' in this ATL. A simple case of Britain using the carrot and the stick: the various groups in India are played against each other, with those who co-operate promised a path to independence as Commonwealth nations. (And the ones who cause trouble get the stick, obviously.) I'd expect the British to encourage regionalist "nationalisms", and to discourage universalist "Pan-Indian" movements. Considering the premise of the ATL, it should be possible to steer things to a meaningful degree.


I have done some work on an scenario where this more-or-less happens (there is one World War, earlier than in OTL, but Britain largely stays out and actually profits hugely by joining the winning side at the very end). In that scenario, Britain undermines the Indian independence movement by the aforementioned carrot-and-stick approach, fostering the separatist Muslim independence movement and manipulating/encouraging a "Pan-Dravidian" movement (largely by making a sort of federalism and a respect for the sanctity of the existing Princely States conditions for British support, which hems in Tamil surpremacy to an extent that makes the other Southern Indian peoples more confortable with the idea). This leads to the collapse of the Pan-Indian independence movement; its core transforming into a rather embittered Hindu nationalism. (Which only turns off some other minor players, so we get independent Sikkim et cetera.)

The Dravidian League gets independence first, which has the proponents of the (very ambitious) Muslim state -- Mughalistan -- scrambling to get British support as well, while the Hindu nationalists get screwed over in a horrible fashion. (They even have to watch as the restored Maratha Confederacy cuts a deal!) The civil war in Northern India is extremely bloody (in fact, the bloodiest single conflict in the 20th century). With British support, Mughalistan largely beats the partisans of Azad Hind, which turns to a very nasty brand of Hindutva radicalism. And along the slopes of the Himalaya, we have a chain of minor states, doing their best to remain out of this horrible mess.

The civil war and its resolution, side by side:

The Indian Question.png


A decidely divided India; any kind of re-unification is practically unthinkable.

(This is of course purely fanciful; a fictional scenario. But not one I'd consider implausible under the circumstances of the ATL.)
 

xsampa

Banned
The most viable way to have a "post-Raj" India that is meaningfully divided, it seems to me, is to set up a scenario where decolonisation is delayed and Britain isn't weakened and distracted by other developments. (Obviously, there are answers as well, such as "no Raj in the first place", but those invariably seem to go against the central question.)

As usual, the good old "no world wars" suffices. The blow to the European empires that was dealt by the First World War in particular can hardly be over-estimated. The Second World War thus saw the stage quite prepared for independence movements to arise-- and indeed they did. After that, the genie was out of the bottle, and couldn't be forced back in. Holding on to India had become in impossibility. In this context, the British weren't quite the Machiavellian schemers playing at 'divide et impera' that some Indian nationalists have pained them to be (British policy was far too muddled for that to be true), but it certainly was understood that an independent Muslim state would serve the British interest. Playing off multiple states against each other would be more conducive to maintaining a British foothold (in the form of indirect influence) than facing a post-colonial India consisting of essentially the whole former Raj.

Now, for the ATL scenario. No World Wars. This doesn't change the fact that colonialism is going to run out of time. There are naturally ways to maintain an Empire, but no matter which way you turn, this requires steps Britain wouldn't be able or willing to take. (Option one is ruthless oppression; whatever you may say of the British Empire, I don't see them going "full Draka", and to keep an unwilling India under your heel, you'd have to. Option two is full -- or nearly full, in any case -- representation of India in an Imperial Federation; I don't see the Brits willing to become a minor state within an Indian Empire, and that would be the certain outcome. Option three is a "Commonwealth Plus" arrangement, with an India under home rule but still involved in the Empire/Commonwealth to a considerable degree; this is the only viable way, but I observe that European nations didn't have the clarity of mind to go for it in OTL, even when it was a realistic option-- as such, I don't pin my hopes on this outcome.)

That leaves a delayed but still inevitable decolonisation. By this point, pressure has been building steadily. Not hit by the World Wars, and able to dedicate its full attention, Britain will have gotten used to suppressing the dissent. Since crushing it ruthlessly isn't a viable long-term strategy, I'd expect there to be more 'divide et impera' in this ATL. A simple case of Britain using the carrot and the stick: the various groups in India are played against each other, with those who co-operate promised a path to independence as Commonwealth nations. (And the ones who cause trouble get the stick, obviously.) I'd expect the British to encourage regionalist "nationalisms", and to discourage universalist "Pan-Indian" movements. Considering the premise of the ATL, it should be possible to steer things to a meaningful degree.


I have done some work on an scenario where this more-or-less happens (there is one World War, earlier than in OTL, but Britain largely stays out and actually profits hugely by joining the winning side at the very end). In that scenario, Britain undermines the Indian independence movement by the aforementioned carrot-and-stick approach, fostering the separatist Muslim independence movement and manipulating/encouraging a "Pan-Dravidian" movement (largely by making a sort of federalism and a respect for the sanctity of the existing Princely States conditions for British support, which hems in Tamil surpremacy to an extent that makes the other Southern Indian peoples more confortable with the idea). This leads to the collapse of the Pan-Indian independence movement; its core transforming into a rather embittered Hindu nationalism. (Which only turns off some other minor players, so we get independent Sikkim et cetera.)

The Dravidian League gets independence first, which has the proponents of the (very ambitious) Muslim state -- Mughalistan -- scrambling to get British support as well, while the Hindu nationalists get screwed over in a horrible fashion. (They even have to watch as the restored Maratha Confederacy cuts a deal!) The civil war in Northern India is extremely bloody (in fact, the bloodiest single conflict in the 20th century). With British support, Mughalistan largely beats the partisans of Azad Hind, which turns to a very nasty brand of Hindutva radicalism. And along the slopes of the Himalaya, we have a chain of minor states, doing their best to remain out of this horrible mess.

The civil war and its resolution, side by side:

View attachment 536247

A decidely divided India; any kind of re-unification is practically unthinkable.

(This is of course purely fanciful; a fictional scenario. But not one I'd consider implausible under the circumstances of the ATL.)
Interesting. Would the Brits do the same in Africa along tribal lines?
 
The Dravidian League will end up as a cold war between Tamils and Telugus in South India
Both have similar demography
 
The most viable way to have a "post-Raj" India that is meaningfully divided, it seems to me, is to set up a scenario where decolonisation is delayed and Britain isn't weakened and distracted by other developments. (Obviously, there are answers as well, such as "no Raj in the first place", but those invariably seem to go against the central question.)

As usual, the good old "no world wars" suffices. The blow to the European empires that was dealt by the First World War in particular can hardly be over-estimated. The Second World War thus saw the stage quite prepared for independence movements to arise-- and indeed they did. After that, the genie was out of the bottle, and couldn't be forced back in. Holding on to India had become in impossibility. In this context, the British weren't quite the Machiavellian schemers playing at 'divide et impera' that some Indian nationalists have pained them to be (British policy was far too muddled for that to be true), but it certainly was understood that an independent Muslim state would serve the British interest. Playing off multiple states against each other would be more conducive to maintaining a British foothold (in the form of indirect influence) than facing a post-colonial India consisting of essentially the whole former Raj.

Now, for the ATL scenario. No World Wars. This doesn't change the fact that colonialism is going to run out of time. There are naturally ways to maintain an Empire, but no matter which way you turn, this requires steps Britain wouldn't be able or willing to take. (Option one is ruthless oppression; whatever you may say of the British Empire, I don't see them going "full Draka", and to keep an unwilling India under your heel, you'd have to. Option two is full -- or nearly full, in any case -- representation of India in an Imperial Federation; I don't see the Brits willing to become a minor state within an Indian Empire, and that would be the certain outcome. Option three is a "Commonwealth Plus" arrangement, with an India under home rule but still involved in the Empire/Commonwealth to a considerable degree; this is the only viable way, but I observe that European nations didn't have the clarity of mind to go for it in OTL, even when it was a realistic option-- as such, I don't pin my hopes on this outcome.)

That leaves a delayed but still inevitable decolonisation. By this point, pressure has been building steadily. Not hit by the World Wars, and able to dedicate its full attention, Britain will have gotten used to suppressing the dissent. Since crushing it ruthlessly isn't a viable long-term strategy, I'd expect there to be more 'divide et impera' in this ATL. A simple case of Britain using the carrot and the stick: the various groups in India are played against each other, with those who co-operate promised a path to independence as Commonwealth nations. (And the ones who cause trouble get the stick, obviously.) I'd expect the British to encourage regionalist "nationalisms", and to discourage universalist "Pan-Indian" movements. Considering the premise of the ATL, it should be possible to steer things to a meaningful degree.


I have done some work on an scenario where this more-or-less happens (there is one World War, earlier than in OTL, but Britain largely stays out and actually profits hugely by joining the winning side at the very end). In that scenario, Britain undermines the Indian independence movement by the aforementioned carrot-and-stick approach, fostering the separatist Muslim independence movement and manipulating/encouraging a "Pan-Dravidian" movement (largely by making a sort of federalism and a respect for the sanctity of the existing Princely States conditions for British support, which hems in Tamil surpremacy to an extent that makes the other Southern Indian peoples more confortable with the idea). This leads to the collapse of the Pan-Indian independence movement; its core transforming into a rather embittered Hindu nationalism. (Which only turns off some other minor players, so we get independent Sikkim et cetera.)

The Dravidian League gets independence first, which has the proponents of the (very ambitious) Muslim state -- Mughalistan -- scrambling to get British support as well, while the Hindu nationalists get screwed over in a horrible fashion. (They even have to watch as the restored Maratha Confederacy cuts a deal!) The civil war in Northern India is extremely bloody (in fact, the bloodiest single conflict in the 20th century). With British support, Mughalistan largely beats the partisans of Azad Hind, which turns to a very nasty brand of Hindutva radicalism. And along the slopes of the Himalaya, we have a chain of minor states, doing their best to remain out of this horrible mess.

The civil war and its resolution, side by side:

View attachment 536247

A decidely divided India; any kind of re-unification is practically unthinkable.

(This is of course purely fanciful; a fictional scenario. But not one I'd consider implausible under the circumstances of the ATL.)
You could convince Milner's Kindergarten and the 1920s Round Table Brits that Britain should keep India. A prettier, wealthier Mrs Webster might have succeeded.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Interesting. Would the Brits do the same in Africa along tribal lines?
Well, not exactly tribal, but I could see them pitting certain groups against each other. This has been a strategy in colonialism for a very long time -- in fact, in OTL, the British were relatively 'limited offenders' in that regard -- and it would no doubt be a strategy in the context of decolonisation, too. That being said, retaining certain bits of Africa would be far less important than retaining influence in India.

The obvious place to pull this would be South Africa. (In my scenario, that becomes a moot point. The Union of South Africa, much bigger than in OTL due to opportunistic British gains in alt-WW1, proves unwilling to put up with this whole 'decolonisation' idea, declares independence, and does go "full Draka". Results are... what you'd expect. But a place where I have the Brits actively pulling the 'divide et impera' strategy to get a good and lucrative deal for themselves is with Benin [Biafra], whose independence they guarantee in return for that sweet, sweet oil. Hey, you have to do something when Iran has basically taken over Eastern Arabia, is now the world's foremost oil state, and also happens to vividly remember that time Britain screwed them over...)

The Dravidian League will end up as a cold war between Tamils and Telugus in South India
Both have similar demography
Malayalis and Kannadigas be like: "You know, if we vote together, we are actually the largest demographic bloc in this League."

(I agree that any Dravidian power would be subject to major Tamil-Telugu tension -- both wanting to be top dog, and each utterly covinced that they alone deserve it -- but under the right circumstances, I think it would be more "heated rivalry" than "cold war".)
 
very, very simple.
Divide British India on ethnic, rather than religious lines. The average south indian has nothing in common in language and culture with the average dehlitie, and the 'indians' to the north east have in common with south east asia and china. Reward all princely states with independence, for their loyalty and enter them in the commonwealth.

with a little bit of work, India borders can resemble those of the Holy Roman Empire. To achieve this ,you the british to REALLY implement divide and rule, and have a short or no world war 2 so that decolonization is slower to ensure no state tries to annex the other.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Well, the Nizam of Hyderabad actually tried to stay out of the Indian Union.

Given my limited knowledge of the time and place, Im not the one to ask if such a state would have been feasible.
Logic, however, seems quite against it. No sea access, no economy, minority muslims ruling over hindus

The Wikipedia link itself gives the revenue of the state, and lists major industries incorporated there, explaining they were located in the region which was best for road and rail links, so I am a bit confused by your statement of "no economy"?
 
The Wikipedia link itself gives the revenue of the state, and lists major industries incorporated there, explaining they were located in the region which was best for road and rail links, so I am a bit confused by your statement of "no economy"?

Ouch point taken. Thanks for the corrcetion.
Still I think being landlocked and especially being surrounded by the Union might be quite a challenge.
 
Ouch point taken. Thanks for the corrcetion.
Still I think being landlocked and especially being surrounded by the Union might be quite a challenge.

However, given this is a "more divided India" thread, an independent Hyderabad could survive much more easily. Especially if it has many neighbours, since it could play them against each other.

EDIT: Indeed, more princely states could survive as independent states, like Mysore and Travancore. Kashmir might, depending on the situation in the north. Same goes for Sikkim - after all, it didn't join with India right away IOTL.
 
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This thread has so far overlooked the driving factor for the unification of post-colonial India: the existence of the Soviet Union. The British ruling class, as in America, was terrified of communism and the USSR's ability to spread global revolution. It was felt like a strong united India was able to resist Moscow's influence in the way two dozen smaller principalities would not. As it turned out India became a Russian ally, but it was never a puppet state the way some African countries were, so maybe they were onto something.

In a world where decolonization is coming, the British recognize it, but there are no world wars and no communist superpowers, I think divide and rule would have won the day. You don't even need to play up the nationalist mindsets too much. Jordan and Iraq never united, neither did Indonesia and Malaysia. Once separate borders are enshrined, so are the power players, and they almost always retain their power over the preferences of the masses.

Another alternative is to go back earlier. One of the most interesting aspects of both the Sepoy Rebellion and other Indian revolts is they were almost entirely based in the areas under direct British rule. If London had cottoned onto this, they could have decided in 1858 that direct rule was too inflammatory and gone fully for the princely state approach. They could work to unify different areas into a dozen or so principalities they could play off each other, while retaining Victoria as the symbolic Empress. If the public in any principalities get too rowdy, you retire the prince to luxury in England, while playing the card of "the Empress has listened to the people and will not tolerate their oppression any longer, here is a new charismatic prince for you". If a prince gets ideas above his standing, he also gets replaced by a suitable family member. Eventually the princes might get their act together and collectively work towards independence from Britain, but any joint body will be a loose confederation with limited power.
 
People here forgot , British gave full independence to princely state in 1935 .
The election of 1935 create a local government in state where every region have its own prime minister. To promote regionalism in India -nothing happen.
Almost all Hindu king -prince who do too much work to shine in there state between 1935-1947 by helping there people. In last pressure by his state citizens to join Indian Union.
I know a story king of taheri , gave a speech to his citizens he will not join Indian Union , when start returning to his palace , people were packed in the road. From his car king fill the form of joining Indian Union.
 
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