Modern Antiquity

JSmith

Banned
This idea is inspired by old Star Trek episode Bread and Circuses which featured a 20th century Roman Empire complete with televised gladitorial battles.
So how do we get a modern world thats the most like antiquity-ie the look,the sound,the feel,the taste but hopefully not the smell :p
 
This idea is inspired by old Star Trek episode Bread and Circuses which featured a 20th century Roman Empire complete with televised gladitorial battles.
So how do we get a modern world thats the most like antiquity-ie the look,the sound,the feel,the taste but hopefully not the smell :p

Hunger games anyone:D? But in all seriousness can you expand on the question?
 

JSmith

Banned
Hunger games anyone:D? But in all seriousness can you expand on the question?
Well I suppose a modern world that has the prevalent political,economic,military and social features from Antiquity-with or without the survival of large empires or states from Antiquity.
 
Catholic countries win the power struggles of the Early Modern Era, get a neo-Roman fixation, and then the Enlightenment equivalent takes the neo-Classical shtick a little too far?
 

JSmith

Banned
Catholic countries win the power struggles of the Early Modern Era, get a neo-Roman fixation, and then the Enlightenment equivalent takes the neo-Classical shtick a little too far?
Well something thats more real and less of a put on actually-probably much less plausible.
 
Mongol invasion of Europe cripples European nations so badly they go back into the dark age, if we want to go crazy, we might find a return to tribalism in some areas. Some cities might find that city-states and Athenian style democracies function better under such conditions. You might get citizen-soldiers like hoplites. In fact, Late Middle Age pikemen weren't that different in function at that time period.
 
Well I suppose a modern world that has the prevalent political,economic,military and social features from Antiquity-with or without the survival of large empires or states from Antiquity.

In what sense would it be "modern"? Chronologically?
 
So, in other words, modern technology but antiquity's states? I think the ideas are already starting to write themselves ... (head's up, some of this may have been subconsciously inspired by other stuff I've come across, since it doesn't feel very original to me.) How's this for a start?

The year is dated 2001 AD, but only by the followers of a small Jewish-descended sect known as the Christians. The vast majority of the civilized world would refer to it as either the year of Galba and Rufus, in reference to the two consuls in Rome, or will call the third year of Bjaeng-dzyuw (平壽), in reference to the era name put forth by Ljuw Bju (劉輔), the Emperor of Xan (Han) ruling in Lakyang (Luoyang).

The world, as such, is rooted in a sort of cold war between Rome and Lakyang. Europe and the Western Hemisphere largely pay obeisance to the Caesar in Rome, while all of East Asia pays homage to the Son of Heaven in Lakyang. However, the rest of Asia and Africa are not quite firmly in either camp. A decade before, the Chinese Emperor had ordered the placement of nuclear missiles on the island of Taprobane (Sri Lanka), upsetting the Roman territories in India. This was considered retribution for the Roman/Persian rapprochement. After the Romans had played the Persia card, so to speak, the militarists in the Xan have become more agitated. This has included stepping up the authority of the magistrates and supervisors over frequently rebellious territories such as Drjew-sjen (Korea) or Bju-nom (Southern Vietnam), in addition to their Taprobane gambit. The world crisis was only resolved when the Romans agreed to remove their missiles from Bactria in exchange for the Xan removing their missiles from Taprobane. In the meantime, however, Taprobane's newly Confucian leadership continues to be a thorn in Rome's side.

However, the Romans have their own issues as well. A few decades before, Roman troops had cracked down in the east and brutally suppressed the Vindobona Spring. A separatist group in Hibernia, for another example, have lately been active, nearly killing the Augustus in Rome. Other aspects of imperial overstretch have begun to appear in the Roman, particularly in parts of Asia. In Arabia, for example, a group of terrorists attacked a Roman navy warship in the port of Eudaemon (Aden), demanding that the Roman Empire withdraw its troops from the Peninsula. In addition, a Roman incursion into Sarapion (Mogadishu) ended in dismal failure, resulting in an incident known as Black Ornis Down. Roman support for the Scythia, in addition, has led to the fall of the king there. The resulting Buddhist theocrats detained members of the Roman embassy as "guest of the bhikkus," and the Augustus was not very happy.

However, as of now, neither side knows exactly what will happen.
 
So, in other words, modern technology but antiquity's states? I think the ideas are already starting to write themselves ... (head's up, some of this may have been subconsciously inspired by other stuff I've come across, since it doesn't feel very original to me.) How's this for a start?

The year is dated 2001 AD, but only by the followers of a small Jewish-descended sect known as the Christians. The vast majority of the civilized world would refer to it as either the year of Galba and Rufus, in reference to the two consuls in Rome, or will call the third year of Bjaeng-dzyuw (平壽), in reference to the era name put forth by Ljuw Bju (劉輔), the Emperor of Xan (Han) ruling in Lakyang (Luoyang).

The world, as such, is rooted in a sort of cold war between Rome and Lakyang. Europe and the Western Hemisphere largely pay obeisance to the Caesar in Rome, while all of East Asia pays homage to the Son of Heaven in Lakyang. However, the rest of Asia and Africa are not quite firmly in either camp. A decade before, the Chinese Emperor had ordered the placement of nuclear missiles on the island of Taprobane (Sri Lanka), upsetting the Roman territories in India. This was considered retribution for the Roman/Persian rapprochement. After the Romans had played the Persia card, so to speak, the militarists in the Xan have become more agitated. This has included stepping up the authority of the magistrates and supervisors over frequently rebellious territories such as Drjew-sjen (Korea) or Bju-nom (Southern Vietnam), in addition to their Taprobane gambit. The world crisis was only resolved when the Romans agreed to remove their missiles from Bactria in exchange for the Xan removing their missiles from Taprobane. In the meantime, however, Taprobane's newly Confucian leadership continues to be a thorn in Rome's side.

However, the Romans have their own issues as well. A few decades before, Roman troops had cracked down in the east and brutally suppressed the Vindobona Spring. A separatist group in Hibernia, for another example, have lately been active, nearly killing the Augustus in Rome. Other aspects of imperial overstretch have begun to appear in the Roman, particularly in parts of Asia. In Arabia, for example, a group of terrorists attacked a Roman navy warship in the port of Eudaemon (Aden), demanding that the Roman Empire withdraw its troops from the Peninsula. In addition, a Roman incursion into Sarapion (Mogadishu) ended in dismal failure, resulting in an incident known as Black Ornis Down. Roman support for the Scythia, in addition, has led to the fall of the king there. The resulting Buddhist theocrats detained members of the Roman embassy as "guest of the bhikkus," and the Augustus was not very happy.

However, as of now, neither side knows exactly what will happen.
A side question: How does Middle Chinese work? I speak Mandarin, and can understand fair amount of Changsha-speech (长沙话), so I know some of the consonant/vowel shifts, but your example has a lot more going on...
 
So, in other words, modern technology but antiquity's states? I think the ideas are already starting to write themselves ... (head's up, some of this may have been subconsciously inspired by other stuff I've come across, since it doesn't feel very original to me.) How's this for a start?

The year is dated 2001 AD, but only by the followers of a small Jewish-descended sect known as the Christians. The vast majority of the civilized world would refer to it as either the year of Galba and Rufus, in reference to the two consuls in Rome, or will call the third year of Bjaeng-dzyuw (平壽), in reference to the era name put forth by Ljuw Bju (劉輔), the Emperor of Xan (Han) ruling in Lakyang (Luoyang).

The world, as such, is rooted in a sort of cold war between Rome and Lakyang. Europe and the Western Hemisphere largely pay obeisance to the Caesar in Rome, while all of East Asia pays homage to the Son of Heaven in Lakyang. However, the rest of Asia and Africa are not quite firmly in either camp. A decade before, the Chinese Emperor had ordered the placement of nuclear missiles on the island of Taprobane (Sri Lanka), upsetting the Roman territories in India. This was considered retribution for the Roman/Persian rapprochement. After the Romans had played the Persia card, so to speak, the militarists in the Xan have become more agitated. This has included stepping up the authority of the magistrates and supervisors over frequently rebellious territories such as Drjew-sjen (Korea) or Bju-nom (Southern Vietnam), in addition to their Taprobane gambit. The world crisis was only resolved when the Romans agreed to remove their missiles from Bactria in exchange for the Xan removing their missiles from Taprobane. In the meantime, however, Taprobane's newly Confucian leadership continues to be a thorn in Rome's side.

However, the Romans have their own issues as well. A few decades before, Roman troops had cracked down in the east and brutally suppressed the Vindobona Spring. A separatist group in Hibernia, for another example, have lately been active, nearly killing the Augustus in Rome. Other aspects of imperial overstretch have begun to appear in the Roman, particularly in parts of Asia. In Arabia, for example, a group of terrorists attacked a Roman navy warship in the port of Eudaemon (Aden), demanding that the Roman Empire withdraw its troops from the Peninsula. In addition, a Roman incursion into Sarapion (Mogadishu) ended in dismal failure, resulting in an incident known as Black Ornis Down. Roman support for the Scythia, in addition, has led to the fall of the king there. The resulting Buddhist theocrats detained members of the Roman embassy as "guest of the bhikkus," and the Augustus was not very happy.

However, as of now, neither side knows exactly what will happen.

I thoroughly enjoyed that. TL please! lol
 
A side question: How does Middle Chinese work? I speak Mandarin, and can understand fair amount of Changsha-speech (长沙话), so I know some of the consonant/vowel shifts, but your example has a lot more going on...
Well, if I remember right, Middle Chinese is the one with the multiple consonant initials and it has consonants as finals too. I have no clue about vowel shifts, though I know MC has more vowels.

To be honest, I just went on Wiktionary here. For a few words that weren't on that list, I just went online to find the MC readings

I thoroughly enjoyed that. TL please! lol
I'll add more to it. I don't think I could pull a full timeline out of that. The problem is, the more I try to make it realistic, the less fun it would be. Don't bother calling this ASB: I know it doesn't sound very plausible. I'll try to make more connections between this "Modern Antiquity" and just Modernity at some point. Anyways, here's a bit more:

The Eastern Han Dynasty did not end in 220 AD as it did historically. In this world, military rulers took control of the state until around 300 AD, when the Han Dynasty splintered. A new Han Dynasty took shape in the south when the north of China was lost to nomadic tribesman. That Han Dynasty lasted for about a century, until it was replaced for a short time by yet another short-lived dynasty, the Tsrhjo (), which were replaced by another Han Dynasty yet again until 550. That empire splintered too.

Like more than one empire, the Xan Empire we know today was founded on an ideology. In the case of Ljuw Yen (劉衍), it was the ideology of Baeng Tsjew-tok (彭昭德), the philosopher who founded the Neo-Xan Confucianism. In the first Han Dynasty, the idea of Confucius as an uncrowned king had taken root. Han Confucianism held that Confucius was a sage like the famous Chinese rulers, such as the emperors Yao and Shun or the kings Tang or Wu. The first Han Dynasty held that it was the Han which restored Confucius to his rightful place as a scholar worthy of worship like a king.

Baeng, however, took the idea even further. It was not enough that a dynasty, such as the short-lived Sin Dynasty, venerated Confucius. Baeng held that only a Han Dynasty, as the obvious paradigm of virtue, could properly venerate Confucius and by extension use his teachings to right All Under Heaven. As such, Baeng and his fellow disciple Drin Hjuwng (陳雄) argued that China must be restored to the ways of the Han, and only the Han. Baeng died during a period of division when China was split between various powers, only one of which claimed to be a descendant of the ancient Han Dynasty. Ljuw Yen, then an infantry in the state of Ngu (), first came across Paeng and Drin's ideology during this time. Ljuw claimed descent from the Han Dynasty of old. After several years of rising up through the ranks of the Ngu military, he later took control of the Ngu state. The Ngu state, located at the base of the Yangtze, controlled China's wealthiest regions. He marshaled the resources of his state and conquered the weakened Ljang () state which controlled the ancient capitals of Drjang-an and Lakyang. After conquering Ljang, Ljuw then managed to persuade the successor state to the Han, which was then based at Kwang-tsyuw (廣州) and gaining the abdication of that emperor. After Baeng died, Ljuw implemented Baeng's philosophy through Drin Hjuwng, who was given high posts in the government. Ljuw's new state, called the Xan to differentiate it from the ancient Han Dynasties held in such high regard, is the current Xan state as we know it.

The Neo-Xan Confucianism is the bedrock of the Chinese state. As a social philosophy, it holds to Confucianism's general teachings about human relationships and the importance of notions of Nyin (), Tok (), or Ngje (). As a religious philosophy, it has absorbed Daoism and Buddhism almost completely to remain the dominant strain of Chinese thought. As a political philosophy, it holds to the importance of Confucius and the Han Dynasty. In particular, there are several important lineages that must be maintained. The first is the Ljuw imperial clan, the only family worthy to sit on the imperial throne, with no other family worthy of ruling all of China. The Ljuw may declare other dynasties and call them Xan, as long as they stem from Ljuw Yen's line. The other important families are the blood descendants of Confucius and Mencius, the Khuwng () and Maeng () families. These families are important in performing vital rites and ceremonies. Though the Ljuw family of emperors are the only ones worthy of sacrificing to Heaven, for example, the other families are supported to maintain the links to the philosophers of old. Ljuw Yen was the first Emperor of the Xan, ruling from 575 to 615.

Ljuw Yen's son Ljuw Lwin (劉倫) was fortunately capable, ruling from 615 to 660. Ljuw Lwin's son Xjuw (劉休), ruled only a short while, from 660 to 671. Ljuw Xjuw's son Ljuw Kae (劉嘉) had his own lengthy rule, from 671 to 712. The government began growing slightly less stable afterwards. Ljuw Kae's son Ljuw Bjom (劉範) ruled from 712 to 720. Bjom's nephew, Ljuw Bjowng (劉奉) then ruled from 720 to 740 before dying. Bjowng was succeeded by a brother, Ljuw Dzyen (劉善), who ruled from 740 to 746. Dzyen's son Ljuw Yo (劉譽) ruled from 746 to 780. He was succeeded by a grandson, Ljuw Paw (劉寶) from 780 to 801, and then Ljuw Paw's nephew Ljuw Hwej (劉懷) from 801 to 834. At that point, the first Xan Empire began to decay, first under Ljuw Paw's apathy towards government matters, and then Ljuw Hwej's poor management. Their successors were no more capable, and a period of decay began. After numerous revolts and poor leadership, a number of states began to break away: first the Tshaj () in 950 and then the Thang () in 963. This was considered the first real test for Xan Confucianism, as it was confronted by the notion that other states, indeed, could hold the Mandate of Heaven. The Tshaj held the east and the Thang held the south. After Ljuw Xim (劉歆), who ruled from 954 to 970, the first Xan declined to just North China. A few generations later, during the rule of Ljuw Hjun (劉芸), who ruled from 1009 to 1033, the Xan declined to just the capital at Lakyang and the tax base able to support the city in a much reduced state. China was plunged into a period of turmoil as the Tshaj and Thang states competed for dominance. The Thang declined in 1043 and were replaced by the Dzej (). The Dzej and Tshaj states then fought amongst themselves as well. From the middle of the 11th century until the 13th century, various large and small states ruled China while the Xan Emperors in Lakyang nominally professed to ruling the entire country. It was only through the Xan's great fortune that in 1225, a peasant rebel and Neo-Xan Confucianist named Uwyang Kaw (區陽皋) managed to take power, destroy the other major states in China by 1236, and restore the rule of the Xan to all of the country. Uwyang and his family ruled as mere regents while holding the highest government posts. Their rule lasted from 1236 to 1389, when they were replaced by the Drin, starting from Drin Kang (陳亢), a descendant of Drin Hjuwng. The Drin then ruled from 1389 to 1609. The Uwyang and Drin eras were marked by a cultural and technological development not seen since the the beginning of the Xan. At the same time, the long-running Xan presence, real or nominal, since the Sin Dynasty meant that Neo-Xan Confucianism could no longer be displaced.

In 1609, the Xan Emperors had grown weary of military lords and powerful families ruling the state. The Drin were purged and massacred in that year, and the Ljuw returned to power. The technological advances of the Uwyang, Drin, and Ljuw eras were applied. The territories of the original Eastern Han Empire never left the Chinese grasp. The first targets, under the Uwyang, were Tibet and Indochina, followed by Sjen-pjie and Sjuwk-dzyin under the Drin. [Korea] and Yamatai (Japan) were next, followed by the southern archipelagos. By 1750, however, the first clashes began with the restored Roman Empire when the Xan attempted to follow the trade routes and continue their expansion into India. The first clashes saw Xan attempt to invade Bactria as well as India. The Romans, however, had quite some political influence over India at this time. The Xan were displaced from India for the time being. However, Roman sailors began arriving not from the south, but were shipwrecked in Yamatai. Chinese fisherman, sailing from north of Yamatai, eventually made landfall in a continent even farther to the west than Yamatai. Initially in the 18th century, these areas were brought under a Chinese military governor and settled under the careful watch of the Xan government. These areas, however, would break away in due course. Unlike its Roman rival, the Xan chose to tightly control its territory and actually eschewed the use of client kings and tributaries where it could. After a century of internal development, the Xan were reawakened to the world of international politics when it attempted to suppress a revolt in what the Romans call Chryse. Chryse, located between the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea, was seen by the Roman and Xan Emperors as strategically vital. The First Sino-Roman War, from 1888 to 1893, ended in a Roman victory at sea and a Chinese victory on land. However, it demonstrated to the Xan court of China's technological weakness abroad. From 1912 to 1919, the Roman Empire and the Xan Empire found themselves on the same side as the Roman Empire fought the Scythian kingdom, with the Xan taking much of the north as the Scythian radical regime collapsed. In that same conflict, the Romans had managed to reduce Persian power as well. After 1919, the Romans and the Xan were finally within striking distance of each other militarily, and it has been going for over eight decades. As of present, the Roman Empire controls a larger physical area than the Chinese one. Including satellite states and client kingdoms, the Romans also control a larger population. The resources seem quite heavily stacked against the East. However, the Roman degree of control over their areas is much weaker, and the internal turmoil is substantially greater.

The Xan Emperor in Lakyang today is Ljuw Bju (劉輔). The Three Ministers are the next most powerful men in Xan. The Minister of War is Ywin Ngjæng (尹迎), the Minister of Masses is Dzwoj Luwk (崔祿), and the Minister of Works is Sew Hwong (蕭弘). However, the official government positions do not disguise the fact that not all people in power hold government posts. In particular, the Emperor has two close associates, the eunuchs Kaewng Yij (江彝) and Kjang Muwk (姜木), who are quite influential in policy matters. Of these six men, the Emperor's ministers are considered quite hawkish in their foreign outlook towards the Romans. The two eunuchs, on the other hand, have consistently argued in favor of peace. So far, the Emperor has been leaning towards aggressive action, but the advice of his chief eunuchs has dissuaded him from overt aggression and towards subterfuge instead. At this point in 2001, the Emperor and his ministers are currently pondering how to draw their Roman rivals into a quagmire from which the Romans cannot escape.
 
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JSmith

Banned
I'll add more to it. I don't think I could pull a full timeline out of that. The problem is, the more I try to make it realistic, the less fun it would be. Don't bother calling this ASB: I know it doesn't sound very plausible. I'll try to make more connections between this "Modern Antiquity" and just Modernity at some point.
Cool hope to see more :)
Also any other ideas about this question?
 
Societies change over time. And empires rise and fall. I don't think its possible to get "antiquity survives" of that sort, though maybe something more like WhatIsAUserName's idea.

Maybe.
 
Well I suppose a modern world that has the prevalent political,economic,military and social features from Antiquity-with or without the survival of large empires or states from Antiquity.

Dynasties come and go, but China is here to stay. A lot of people don't realize China is an ancient civilization. Now it's broken up more than once since first unified.
 
Dynasties come and go, but China is here to stay. A lot of people don't realize China is an ancient civilization. Now it's broken up more than once since first unified.

Although China has changed enormously over time.

I don't think you can say its survived as much as been periodically reborn phoenix-style.
 
I don't think this idea can work because you can't repeat the past, there is really no situation I see where a Neo Roman empire is still basically the same antiquity state it was in the 1st century AD, I mean look at our actual example of a surviving Roman Empire, the Byzantines where not that similar to the old empire even before the radical shifts of the sixth and seventh centuries. And just having people try to keep things from changing is an exercise in futility.
 
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