MMA without WW2

[Deleted member 1487]

If we didn't have WW2 could we still have something like Mixed Martial Arts as a sport? Boxing, wresting, and fencing were popular before the war, but the war itself seemed to bring more modern concepts of fighting to the public, as people were taught the 'dirty fighting' manual by guys like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Applegate
It created the paratroopers in the US and Britain, along with the commandos, SAS, special service units, etc. all of whom were taught either the US or British martial arts program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendu

Without WW2 would Bruce Lee have become the person he did that helped bring the modern concept of MMA to the US? Thoughts?

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

Bearing in mind we're talking about a very early PoD here - UFC 1 being more than fifty years after the start of the Second World War, and in Japan evolved out of professional wrestling which had barely started at that time - the big issue would be T-Rex sized butterflies.

Also, if you remove WW2 you've got the issue of butterflying away the 1940 born Bruce Lee.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Bearing in mind we're talking about a very early PoD here - MMA as a sport started in the 90s, and in Japan evolved out of professional wrestling which had barely started at that time - the big issue would be T-Rex sized butterflies.

Modern MMA did start in the 1990s, but grew out of a variety of martial arts movements in the 1960s and IIRC in the post-WW2 era US. It was made into a sport in 1993 IIRC, but had been gestating well before that, however you are very right about the butterfly issue. Would they be enough to prevent it or perhaps even cause an earlier start?

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

Modern MMA did start in the 1990s, but grew out of a variety of martial arts movements in the 1960s and IIRC in the post-WW2 era US. It was made into a sport in 1993 IIRC, but had been gestating well before that, however you are very right about the butterfly issue. Would they be enough to prevent it or perhaps even cause an earlier start?

Fair point about the gestation. The issue is about when MMA became MMA. You could point to LeBell-Savage or Ali-Inoki as the start, and indeed Pancrase - which started off as an attempt at pro wrestling without the fixing - or even the Gracie Challenges as the start, but UFC 1 really was the genesis for anything remotely resembling MMA as anyone knows it. Then again, one could also argue that MMA moved towards what are now the Unified Rules.

I suppose something like Ali-Inoki could turn in to something resembling modern MMA.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

Just as a sidepoint on the history, that's a POD before taekwondo was codified. My thought is that something like Ali-Inoki is the best bet - challenges between martial arts. Perhaps a challenge between college wrestlers and judo or between boxing and karate, but they could just create an open grappling form or kickboxing (which appeared from karate IIRC) respectively.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

One thing I neglected earlier is that it could, of course, grow out of Vale Tudo in Brazil, which started in the 20s as a sideshow. Perhaps Vale Tudo spreads to Japan after ju jitsu fighters start winning, with initial matches starting out as ju jitsu versus karate?

This is an interesting question as the roots were set down well in advance (all the things I have mentioned - indeed, even ancient Greek pankration!) but the only real starting point that acts as a clear-ish Day One is the first UFC event in Denver.

 

[Viscount of Ohio]

Just as a sidepoint on the history, that's a POD before taekwondo was codified. My thought is that something like Ali-Inoki is the best bet - challenges between martial arts. Perhaps a challenge between college wrestlers and judo or between boxing and karate, but they could just create an open grappling form or kickboxing (which appeared from karate IIRC) respectively.

Weren't they already doing that even in the 1880s and 1890s, though? When E.W. Barton-Wright was trying to promote his 'Bartitsu' (which was, essentially, a system of cross-training between Wrestling, Boxing, La Savate, La Canne, and Judo/Jiu-Jitsu) he actively promoted several Japanese Judo players in music hall matches against local wrestlers.
He also started a full gym with experts in the various disciplines. Vigny cane fighting, Armand Cherpillad for wrestling, etc.

The Kodokan was trying to spread Judo as far back as the early 1900s, so anywhere you could find other fighting disciplines, you could surely start competitions.

I believe, as well, that in Japan around the same era there was supposedly a match between a Boxer (who's name currently escapes me, assuming it was mentioned to start with) and I believe, Choki Motobu (a fairly well known Karate expert of the era)

So the seeds were already planted, really. As long as you've got martial artists wanting to prove 'My kung-fu is supreme!' you'll have MMA develop in some form or another.

 

[Jotun]

There is a LOT of figting systems older than the POD that use what a 40s American would call "dirty tricks". There is also German Ju-Jitsu (called Ju-Jutsu here) and of course Krav Maga which was created in Slovakia in the 30s. Both are open systems that continually incorporate techniques feom other martial arts.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

Weren't they already doing that even in the 1880s and 1890s, though? When E.W. Barton-Wright was trying to promote his 'Bartitsu' (which was, essentially, a system of cross-training between Wrestling, Boxing, La Savate, La Canne, and Judo/Jiu-Jitsu) he actively promoted several Japanese Judo players in music hall matches against local wrestlers.
He also started a full gym with experts in the various disciplines. Vigny cane fighting, Armand Cherpillad for wrestling, etc.

The Kodokan was trying to spread Judo as far back as the early 1900s, so anywhere you could find other fighting disciplines, you could surely start competitions.

I believe, as well, that in Japan around the same era there was supposedly a match between a Boxer (who's name currently escapes me, assuming it was mentioned to start with) and I believe, Choki Motobu (a fairly well known Karate expert of the era)

So the seeds were already planted, really. As long as you've got martial artists wanting to prove 'My kung-fu is supreme!' you'll have MMA develop in some form or another.

Fair point - I was referring to Ali-Inoki in particular as it was two high profile specialists in a bit of a freak show.

There is a LOT of figting systems older than the POD that use what a 40s American would call "dirty tricks". There is also German Ju-Jitsu (called Ju-Jutsu here) and of course Krav Maga which was created in Slovakia in the 30s. Both are open systems that continually incorporate techniques feom other martial arts.

The problem with Krav Maga, IIUC, is that it doesn't lend itself towards competition in that it's focused on actual, practical self defence techniques like eye gouging and groin strikes.

 

[ZenWolfDances]

Wiking, I wouldn't say that WW2 had much of an influence on MMA from either a historical or technical perspective. The basic H2H/CQB ("hand-to-hand", "close-quarters battle") systems that were developed for drill camp instruction - and even the more advanced H2H training offered to commados, et al - tended to borrow from a common set of sources that had been percolating since the turn of the 20th century via Bartitsu.

The principal figures of the Bartitsu Club (1899-1902) experimented with combining (kick)boxing, wrestling and judo/jujitsu and there were long-running, quite acrimonious public debates about the superiority of various national fighting styles.

People who had practical experience in both Asian and European styles quickly agreed that an intelligent combination of all of them was optimal, but also that actually competing in such a combination system - which would have yielded something very close indeed to modern MMA - would have been considered "brawling in a public place" under Edwardian English law. Thus, their experiments stayed "behind closed doors", in the context of developing more effective self-defence systems, rather than being staged as public sporting competitions.

That said, throughout the 20th century there were numerous matches in which, for example, a boxer would take on a wrestler, or a savateur (French kickboxer) would challenge a jujitsuka, taking place in Europe, Japan, Hawaii, the mainland US, Australia and elsewhere. It quickly became apparent that grapplers tended to win over strikers, but these matches remained as "style vs. style" novelty events almost everywhere other than in Brazil, where the "rules" were relaxed enough for a true MMA to evolve over a period of decades.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

The legal side is a fair point. Funnily enough, there is still a little bit of lingering doubt about if MMA is actually legal in the United Kingdom, but it is generally accepted that if there were to be a test case it would be found to be legal.

Perhaps Brazil is the best country for an alternate early MMA to develop - or perhaps vale tudo coalesces in Brazil but spreads to the US via Japan?

 

[Jotun]

What about Pankration? It is actually still practised in Greece and it means "all-style fighting"...maybe some Edwardian scholar goes all mushy about its revival?

Interestingly, one of the more popular voices arguing in favor of a style mix was Bruce Lee. There is a story in there somewhere...

 

[ZenWolfDances]

What about Pankration? It is actually still practised in Greece and it means "all-style fighting"...maybe some Edwardian scholar goes all mushy about its revival?

Interestingly, one of the more popular voices arguing in favor of a style mix was Bruce Lee. There is a story in there somewhere...

The Pankration currently practiced in Greece and elsewhere is a modern reconstruction of the original style; some individuals and organisations are more forthcoming about that fact than others.

The question of "what constitutes MMA?" is tricky, though - depends on definitions. Pankration was the first known codified combat sport to combine both striking and grappling techniques, but innumerable other combat styles (as distinct from sports), both Asian and European, followed that example over the subsequent centuries.

Then Bartitsu came along as the first system to combine Asian and European "antagonistics", as martial arts were called in E.W. Barton-Wright's era. It wasn't practiced as a holistic MMA sport for legal reasons, but Barton-Wright did stage popular "style vs. style" contests via the London music halls (specifically, jujitsu - which he had effectively introduced to the Western world in 1898 - vs. various English wrestling styles).

"Style vs. style" novelty matches persisted throughout the 20th century, coming in and out of vogue, while actual self-defence/CQB evolved into a grab-bag of tricks drawn from any source that didn't run away too fast. Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do approach was a product of its own time, bucking the general tradition of strict separation of styles, so in a sense he was the E.W. Barton-Wright of the 1960s. Others followed suit during the '70s and '80s, but not in sufficient numbers or with sufficient backing/exposure to have a lasting effect on the status quo.

Overall, the pattern has been a sustained cycle of isolated innovation/experimentation against a backdrop of separatist conservativism/traditionalism, up until media conditions and $$$ favoured the MMA revolution.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

British criminal law could pose an issue: indeed it is not fully clear that MMA is legal in England and Wales (although a test case would more likely than not find that it is in my opinion). Perhaps it could flourish in Brazil first and then spread to Japan?