Mithras Supreme

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by tom, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. Norman Member

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    Have North Spain, Italy,and an area around the Black Sea be Mitraic and I think we got it.

    Also consider whether the Baltics are Eastern or Mitraic.

    I like Ireland being Western Christian.

    DO we want parts of Southern Spain to be Coptic???
     
  2. Tom_B Member

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    Nestorianism

    If you butterfly Islam into the Null Set then I think you would see the robust survival of Nestorianism in parts of Asia.
     
  3. basileus Inflammable

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    Spanish was born as a language in the Asturian and Cantabrian mountains during the Dark Ages, when 80% of Spain was in the hands of the Arabs - and in Arabo-Spanish cities Mozarabic, a NEOLATIN dialect curiously similar to Italian, was spoken.
    Spanish (or better:Castellano) was a Latin spoken bey people doubly influecnced by a Basque and Celtic ancentry/linguistic substrate (which explains why lactis--->leche (milk), Celtic tendence, or the impossibility to make a double consonantic nexus beginning a word, e.g. the name Esteban (Stephen), or the enphatic r, the last two residuals of Basque, maybe the second of ancient Iberian.
    Obviously,it already contained some Germanic words - but less than you can expect in a country dominated by Goths for three centuries, simply b/c the Gothic language went out of use already in the 6th century even amongst the elite.
    Arabic has given a peculiar character to Spanish; it contains A LOT of Arab vocabulary, so much as to make you swar b/c some words have absolutely no clue as to what's their meaning for the averagin Neo-Latin speaker.
     
  4. tom Member

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    Is this better?

    mithras2.GIF
     
  5. Norman Member

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    Looks good!

    What conflicts are likely to erupt, and what countries are likely to exist?
     
  6. tom Member

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    One idea I had would be giving Rome some special status, due to its historical significance, its location near a border, and the fact that both Catholicism and Mithraism have their leaders there.
    BTW, as a Catholic myself, I would vote for Catholicism being very similar to 4th Cen Catholicism, before it got its power into its head. Most of the later controversies might be less likely in a world where the Church is not the top dog and more likely to circle the wagons, and the entangling State affairs would be less likely where the Church is an 18 pound monkey instead of an 800 pound gorilla.
     
  7. tom Member

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    Three Catholic countries: Ireland, south Spain, and south Italy + islands.
    A good place for conflict might be that Mithraic nation by the Black Sea.
    Would the Coptic religion be influenced by Nestorianism, and the Orthodox by Gnosticism, as the Mithraic one was by Teutonic Paganism?
    Also, what would be a good reason for the German tribes flocking to Mithraism here and not in OTL? Some centurion (Wodinthane? Or a better name?) who was killed in OTL who becomes the "Lion of Mithras" in the ATL?
     
  8. tom Member

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    One more thought:
    This map may just work out for the 20th Century as well. The Orthodox Churches were already drifting away centuries before 1054, and most of the Muslim conquests were made within a century of Mohammed's death. Except for Spain's Reconquista, a religious map of Europe in the 10th Century would look a lot like one in the 20th, if you kept in mind the Eastern Churches were de facto different, if not de jure.
     
  9. Norman Member

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    When the legions, under the leadership of Guisureth Hratgason, a popular and successful leader, 'defect' to the German tribes across the border (circa 312 - 320) after Constantine declares for Christianity. Joining the Goths in the East, they are faced with some jockying for power between the gothic King (I forget his name, but I think it is Eormanric), and several competitors. In OTL the competition contributed to the breakup of the Goths into east and west. but in this, the newly arrived legions support the king, stabilizing the kingdom.

    In exchange for hte support, the king names Guisureth to be a member of the his tribe, adopting him directly into his family. This puts Guisureth in line for the 'throne'.

    Although the Goths were at this time extremely warlike (so much so that the translater of the bible into Gothic would translate the battle scenes on the grounds that they didn't need encouragement), Guisureth's success in battle begins to attract followers to the religion from among the tribesmen. It is at this point that the Mithras begins to take on attributes of Thor, a highly popular german god.

    The two important changes that come with the legions are: 1) medical techniques which were (for that time and place) very advanced, and 2) improved discipline of the Mithraic tribal warriors. In addition, Wulfingas (?) the Christian missionary arrives and translates the bible in to Gothic. This act begins to attract some adherents, but also provokes a sort of mini-counter literacy among the followers of Mithra, and the basic tenets of the faith are written down. Christians are soon surpressed, but the literacy they brought continues to grow. It is at this time that the Mithraic 'Fathers' become literate.

    As a result, when the Huns begin to filter into Europe in and around 320 A.D. there are actually some pretty good troops there to resist them. The goths defeat the Huns in a series of stunning victories, despite some overwhelming odds.

    One aspect of this defeat of the Huns are several tales of incredible strength and bravery that the 'skalds / scops' turn into epic length poems and take to the rest of the Northern peoples. Central to these poems is the concept that Mithra brings success in battle.

    Soon even the most distant heathen has heard of Mithra, and many send messnagers to ask about the religion.
     
  10. tom Member

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    Some more thoughts:
    1) This TL is likely to be less warlike than OTL, since Mithraism seemed to be more accepting of other beliefs than Christianity and thus things like the 30 Year War are less likely. This might slow down technological development.
    2) There are likely to be a thousand Mithraists in this timeline for each one in OTL. "Three can keep a secret, if two are dead." It is virtually certain that the doctrines and theology of Mithraism will be common knowledge by 2004.
    3) With the map I drew, it seems likely that the New World will be colonized by Mithraists, making the religion even more dominant in this ATL.
    4) We could probably assume that the national borders are similar to OTL for the first century or two after the POD, but then the different migrations and such will reach this level. Ian has a link on the old site to some great map websites that give ancient and medieval maps of Europe that may be interesting here. Anyone know enogh of history 4th-6th century to give a good ATL map for 600 AD?
     
  11. tom Member

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  12. Tom_B Member

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    Freemasonry

    More thoughts about the esoteric problem in Mithraism. In Christianity one got brutally executed for saying something regarded by the authorities as False (ie. heresy). In Mithraism you could executed very brutally for saying something that is regarded as True by the authorities (ie. revealing the secret Mysteries). One thing to use and as analogy of Freemasonry where revealing the secrets of the society warranted gruesome executions. Yet there are books in all our public libraries outlining Masonic "secret" rituals. How can this be? Well (contrary to some forms of the mental illness which is Conspiracy Theory) the Masons do not have rigid contol of our society. But a Mithraic society would for a while be able to surpress the public dissemination of its innermost Mysteries. But the fly in the ointment might be neighboring lands where a form of Christianity is dominant. There the inner Mysteries of Mithras would be in print--but probably in a calumnous form--think about Leo Taxil's revealations about the Freemasons which the supposedly liberal Pope Leo swallowed completely. This actually should cause at least one good sized Christian/Mithraist Jihad. Just because you don't have Islam doesn't mean you can't have holy wars.
     
  13. tom Member

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    Mithraic Europe

    Good point, Tom B!
    And now, submitted for your approval (yeah, ssssuuuuurrrreeee) is my first draft of 7th Century Mithraic Europe.
    Spania is olive green, Eerland is yellow, as is Italia. Saxonland is purple, the other English kingdoms are brown, as are the Gothic kingdoms north and east of Spania. Basque territory is light green, and Burgunland is red. Gothland is olive green and is north of Italia, and Mithraland is Brown and north of Gothland. The Norse realm is yellow and called Thorland. Nova Roma is light green, the stronghold of Eastern "Orthodox" Christianity. Aura is west of the Black Sea. I think that's it.
    If this passes muster, I will try to build on it a couple centuries at a time.
     
  14. tom Member

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    Try again

    Hope second time is the charm...

    mithras3.GIF
     
  15. Norman Member

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    Tom-

    Just as my alternate history self remembers it!! Good job.
     
  16. tom Member

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    Some possible developments

    Here are some things which might happen in the 8th or 9th Centuries:
    1) Dayem the Great (my psychiatrist...he's an Eqyptian) conquers Turkey for Coptic Christianity.
    2) Holy war against Italia or Spania for spilling the beans about Mithraism.
    3) Holy war by Nova Roma against the "idolaters" of Aura.
    4) Saxonland takes over rest of Britain.
    5) Mithraland speads south and west.
    6) Mithraland and Thorland get into a war over control of Baltic and North Seas.
    7) Eerland has scism with Roman Church, due to different cultural background.
    8) Mithraland, Gothland and Thorland gang up on Nova Roma (perhaps as a result of 3).
    9) Burgunland has schism with Mithraism.
    10) Arabia has schism with Coptic Christianity (but this would not be Islam, even if it has some surface similarities with OTL Islam).
    How do these sound?
    Any other suggestions?
     
  17. Norman Member

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    In 683, the Egyptians, under the leadership of Dayem the Great, (now known as the Father of Psychological Warfare), devised a scheme to take Jeruselum away from the Eastern Empire of Byzatium. He began to spread the tale of a great plague in his lands, some few merchants (well paid and therfore trusted), told tales of bodies in the streets. Soon most trade was stopped by the Byzantines until the truth could be learned.

    In the meantime, he had assembled an army near the border of the Byzantin Empire to the South, and on August 2, 650, invaded and captured the Holy Land, requiring all pilgrims from Byzatium to pay a hefty fee to visit the hold places.

    This set into place a series of small wars as Byzatium attempted to recapture the Holy Land.
     
  18. Tom_B Member

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    Is there a compelling reason for Mithraland to be so unified? It makes scripting AH easier but I don't find it very likely in this time period. What I think would happen is there is a divison into fairly small feudal territories. The Mithraic Fathers would try to restrain and control behind the scenes but if the Grand Baron of LaLa Land gets too loopy they get their lower level initiates to depose him usually with extreme prejudice. On the whole their influence is benign but in matters involving people revealing their secrets it would be a repressive force. Nobody's perfect.

    Oh and one name to consider for a Mithraic dominated nation should be New Phrygia.
     
  19. tom Member

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    I spent a bit of time preparing a 9th or 10th Century map before reading your replies...let's consider it a rough draft.
    Maybe New Phrygia might be good some centuries later for the Western Hemisphere?

    Burgunland (purple) and the Basques (green) have lost some ground in the last couple centuries. The Petty kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula got into an alliance (The Pride of Lions) due to a war with Spania (which Spania lost). The Saxons (and Angles and Jutes) now own all of Britain. Mithrasland is breaking up, especially in the north (and so is Gothland in the mountainous areas) (see, I was thinking a little along those lines). The lowland Mithralanders are completely separate now. Turkey is now Coptic. Nova Roma got into several wars with Thorland (which it won) and Mithrasland (which it lost). It is also breaking up, the Baltic people (blue) and Slavic people (light green) and Hellenics (light green) leaving a north and a south section still nominally part of the empire, although they are moving towards independence with the loss of the Eastern Capitol. Aura has grown somewhat as a result. Also, since Mithraland was more "Roman" in its view of Mithraism than Thorland, this means the religion is a little bit more "classical"

    I will be glad to work with you on polishing up a better map for 900 AD.

    mithras4.GIF
     
  20. tom Member

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    Gee, the Baltics looked more different thaan that before I posted it!
    I look forward to working with Tom B and Norman...I want to post this to the IA background (and use it, if that background gets off the ground) and three heads are better than one. I am very weak on pre-modern history, so you can help me a lot...just as I could probably help you if you were designing a solar system.
    I was wondering...would Mithraism spread "disinformation" to counter and confuse leaked secrets, or is that a stupid idea?