Military technology without gunpowder?

[saint polype]

Say of Whatifalthist on Youtube what you want, but there was something he said in a recent video that stuck with me.

He argued that if Ancient Greece had properly industrialized, as it almost would have OTL if it weren't for the specific political and cultural context, then their era would have rapidly filled with trains and industries and whatnot.

However, guns and canons would likely not have been part of the deal for centuries to come because gunpowder was just a very specific twist of Chinese alchemy and not at all an "inevitable" invention. It would probably not appear any sooner than it did OTL - that is, centuries after Greek industrialization kicked off - and maybe not at all.

So that begs the question - after an initial phase where the trains transport soldiers with bows and swords across southern Europe and Asia Minor, what kind of new weapon systems would be added to the arsenal? Or would it simply stagnate, and the industries would just be used to forge more durable swords?

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

Say of Whatifalthist on Youtube what you want, but there was something he said in a recent video that stuck with me.

He argued that if Ancient Greece had properly industrialized, as it almost would have OTL if it weren't for the specific political and cultural context, then their era would have rapidly filled with trains and industries and whatnot.

However, guns and canons would likely not have been part of the deal for centuries to come because gunpowder was just a very specific twist of Chinese alchemy and not at all an "inevitable" invention. It would probably not appear any sooner than it did OTL - that is, centuries after Greek industrialization kicked off - and maybe not at all.

So that begs the question - after an initial phase where the trains transport soldiers with bows and swords across southern Europe and Asia Minor, what kind of new weapon systems would be added to the arsenal? Or would it simply stagnate, and the industries would just be used to forge more durable swords?

Air guns. OTL they were underused but with more money invested into research we could end up with impressive weapons. OTL they had fo be filled manually but with ondustrial tech one could use industrial air compressors

---

Of course with development of chemistry we'd see discovery of oxidation and oxidating salts with some equivalent of gunpowder

After a while smokeless powder is invented

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Air guns. OTL they were underused but with more money invested into research we could end up with impressive weapons. OTL they had fo be filled manually but with ondustrial tech one could use industrial air compressors

Would people really think of air guns ITTL? They don't seem like the most obvious sort of weapon, particularly if there aren't any "proper" guns to set people thinking along those lines.

One potential weapon would be a kind of armoured car designed to break up enemy formations by physically driving into them. Sort of like a tank but without the guns or shells. ITTL they'd be thought of as a kind of mechanical war elephant, with the advantage that they aren't going to get spooked and run back through their own lines.

 

[Stilicho alexander severu]

It would be nice watch medieval knight fough with motorbike

 

[Stilicho alexander severu]

Hi! I am italian, but I will try to give some answers and my thought.. But it had made some what if post about roman empire (caracalla,maximinus the trax and roman and han technology exchange), and trolling mc afee become us president, could you give a watch?

 

[Stilicho alexander severu]

There is also greek fire

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

Would people really think of air guns ITTL? They don't seem like the most obvious sort of weapon, particularly if there aren't any "proper" guns to set people thinking along those lines.

One potential weapon would be a kind of armoured car designed to break up enemy formations by physically driving into them. Sort of like a tank but without the guns or shells. ITTL they'd be thought of as a kind of mechanical war elephant, with the advantage that they aren't going to get spooked and run back through their own lines.

There are blowguns. Making an air gun may come after someone just thinks of making a better blowgun

Viable cars are long decades away from the beginning of Industriysl Revolution.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

There are blowguns. Making an air gun may come after someone just thinks of making a better blowgun

I don't think blowguns were widely used in the ancient Mediterranean, were they?

 

[saint polype]

There are blowguns. Making an air gun may come after someone just thinks of making a better blowgun

Viable cars are long decades away from the beginning of Industriysl Revolution.

I dunno, how big is the gap really between a train and some sort of three- or four wheeled all terain vehicle?

For military use, it doesn't need to be a practical everyday road vehicle. You could load it on a train, then only use it in battle proper by driving it into the enemy, make a few leisurely rounds with nasty spike or sicle covered wheels, then drive back to a nearby base while the infantry takes care of the survivors.

In fact, it could be a sort of armored drop pod, driving into the enemy infantry as the arrows bounce off ineffectively, flatten the first few rows, then have your troops jump out right into the middle of the action?

 

[andys]

I've also just started a thread on this.

The sort of weapon time travellers might take back with them? If they can get downtimers to build steam engines, the rest of the tech involved seems pretty simple to replicate.

 

[NotAMyth]

I think it's a flawed premise.

Let's start with gunpowder, which at the time of its advent was the most practical, high-energy-density substance in the world. It played a direct role in initiating the development of metallurgical processes that are essential for so many other things, including trains. Most importantly it was so widely produced that it brought the concept of energy-dense substances as an alternative to mechanical power into the mainstream. Before this, there were only experiments with things like steam power or state secrets like Greek Fire. So basically metallurgy is a non-starter without widespread adoption of energy-dense substances for military purposes (Since that is the only way such endeavors would get enough resources and assistance to survive and propagate)

What was also lacking is the widespread literacy and freely available written records, which ensure that advancements and innovations don't die out with the founder but can actually be built upon further. So paper, printing, widespread literacy, and free dissemination of information is absolute must.

Then comes the question of not enough demand. There is no point in installing expensive, path-breaking machinery even now if you don't have the demand, or your costs aren't justified. This is true even for the military (even today)- no army in the world goes equipped with more than the bare minimum. No point in having full-body, metal armor if the guy in front of you is naked with a spear.

And lastly what you need is a resource surplus society. Now, this is a broad objection, but an important one. You needed an Empire the size of Rome to build a semi-decent network of quality roads, and even they weren't at times able to keep up with its maintenance costs. The greek city-states may have been prosperous for their time, but no way they can even start to afford to build or maintain a railway network, which is magnitudes higher in terms of complexity. You need an early-modern economy and population to even consider that sort of endeavor. That means advanced medicine and higher volume trade routes to sustain such populations.

 

[Gwyain]

Air guns. OTL they were underused but with more money invested into research we could end up with impressive weapons. OTL they had fo be filled manually but with ondustrial tech one could use industrial air compressors

---

Of course with development of chemistry we'd see discovery of oxidation and oxidating salts with some equivalent of gunpowder

After a while smokeless powder is invented

Don't forget steam cannons.

Would people really think of air guns ITTL? They don't seem like the most obvious sort of weapon, particularly if there aren't any "proper" guns to set people thinking along those lines.

One potential weapon would be a kind of armoured car designed to break up enemy formations by physically driving into them. Sort of like a tank but without the guns or shells. ITTL they'd be thought of as a kind of mechanical war elephant, with the advantage that they aren't going to get spooked and run back through their own lines.

If you already have compressed air/steam, it isn't much of a leap. Steam explosions and compressed air shrapnel are lethal and anyone using the technologies will find that out rather quickly. It doesn't take a genius to realize you can weaponize that.

 

[saint polype]

Don't forget steam cannons.

If you already have compressed air/steam, it isn't much of a leap. Steam explosions and compressed air shrapnel are lethal and anyone using the technologies will find that out rather quickly. It doesn't take a genius to realize you can weaponize that.

I just realized I would not be a very good weapons inventor. If I stumbled upon something like this my first reaction would be "Yikes, this could put someone's eye out, better keep a lid on all that"

 

[Dagoth Ur]

Air guns would be cool, and also fairly stealthy. Much quieter than even a subsonic firearm with a silencer. Just a quick hiss of air, and easier to baffle than an explosion, and no smell.

I just realized I would not be a very good weapons inventor. If I stumbled upon something like this my first reaction would be "Yikes, this could put someone's eye out, better keep a lid on all that"

Yeah, your first reaction should be "Excellent, this will put someone's eye out!"

 

[SPJ]

The creation of compound bow designs in the ancient era is a technological leap that I believe would have been plausible to achieve.

Then their is the Youtuber JoergSprave who has made several videos demonstrating his development of an arrow magazine that can be mounted onto a bow, and be constructed without modern machine tools

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

The creation of compound bow designs in the ancient era is a technological leap that I believe would have been plausible to achieve.

Then their is the Youtuber JoergSprave who has made several videos demonstrating his development of an arrow magazine that can be mounted onto a bow, and be constructed without modern machine tools

By the way, are stronger crossbows/ballistas with a higher draw weighr and pneumatic reloading mechanism a possibility?

 

[SPJ]

Joerg has also made videos showing several magazine fed repeating crossbow designs that could also be adapted into ballistas

 

[SPJ]

By the way, are stronger crossbows/ballistas with a higher draw weighr and pneumatic reloading mechanism a possibility?

Guess I just answered part of your question with my last post. Not sure what you had in mind with "pneumatic reloading". The designs shown here of gravity fed magazines seem the best. Joerg of course added rubber bands to help in feeding the arrows. Since the Greeks did not have rubber the best option for them would then likely be coiled rope or leather cords for added tension on the magazine feeding system

 

[SPJ]

Forgot to look this up first since I forgot the name. There was a repeating-ballista designed in ancient times known as a Polybolas. I imagine mechanical improvements could be added to it with industrial technology

Something similar in design is used in this scene from The Hobbit

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

Guess I just answered part of your question with my last post. Not sure what you had in mind with "pneumatic reloading". The designs shown here of gravity fed magazines seem the best. Joerg of course added rubber bands to help in feeding the arrows. Since the Greeks did not have rubber the best option for them would then likely be coiled rope or leather cords for added tension on the magazine feeding system

A crossobow or ballista taht uses compressed air or steam to draw the string would be a good entry to airguns. Add a metal pipe with a metal ball inside that is still pushed out by the string and then switch to balls that are pushed out by the air itself i.e. air guns.