Mid/long-term consequences of a still-Gaelic Scotland?

A bit of background to those unfamiliar with the earlier chapters of (properly) Scottish history, before what scholarship calls the Davidian Revolution (a series of institutional reforms propagated by King David I) was something like your prototypical image of a gaelic kingdom, and it could be argued that it had - politically and culturally - much more in common with its Irish siblings across the sheuch, historiography going as far as calling the pre-Wars of Independence kingdom as specifically the Kingdom of Alba (as opposed to Scotland). It hadn't yet consolidated to the manner we're familiar with the concept of "Scotland" today, such consolidation was arguably headstarted by David and his heirs, although the process was already taking shape during the fairly long reign of David's father, Malcolm III.

The thing is, the aforementioned "revolution" is responsible for the (quick) normanization and (gradual) anglicization first of the Scottish court and second of Scotland itself, the burghs created by David would come to in less than a century be recognized as centers of the english sprachbund (for lack of a better term), as english historian William of Newburgh would write in the reign of the homonym scottish king that "the towns and burghs of the Scottish [Gaelic] realm are known to be inhabited by English". English, more accurately, the northernmost variety of Late Northumbrian Old English, that would later become Scots, was already spoken in the kingdom's lands south of the Forth and east of the Clyde Valley (so basically Lothian), but as one can take from Adam of Dryburgh, it was seen at least as far as the 13th century that the "Kingdom of Scotland" was inherently Gaelic (or at least inherently not-anglic), he describes his locality as "in terra Anglorum et in regno Scottorum" ("in english lands at the Scottish kingdom"), and there was a prevailing view that the "english lands" bordered the "scottish lands" on the Firth of Forth, traditionally the border between Old English speakers and Gaelic ones.

More on point, the anglicization of Scotland (and the takeover of Scots identity as the "mainstream" scottish identity) is very relevant to how politics and overall perceptions in Britain came and went, the Scottish Independence Wars were mostly a Scots enterprise, and were what signalled the beggining of Gaelic gaining the shorter end of the stick and relegating to a "rural" language (even with ongoing normanization, Scottish royal tradition was still very Gaelic until the break created by the Independence Wars), later in the Medieval-Modern transition, Anglo-Scottish common "englishness" was very central to the political idea of any union between the two crowns becoming institutionally permanent, and as such guided both Anglo and Scottish self-perception on politics (re: security and ambitions).
It's very difficult to classify my intent here, but it's simultaneously a WI, an AHQ, an attempt at starting discussion and an AHC (as i'm kinda asking what would be suitable PoDs for what i'm saying). But here it goes:

What are the mid to long-term consequences of a Scotland that is still seen (and still sees itself) as a mainly Gaelic, Celtic, polity? How would that change the dynamics between it, England, and surrounding polities? How that affects perceptions of it, and its perceptions of others, down the line? Assuming minimal butterflies, of course. It's an exercise at thinking. Beyond that, which PoD would be more fitting to create such situation? My tirades about David and his reforms might give the thinking of obvious-ness about where to change, but it's important to note that it wasn't until almost 150 years after him that Scotland solidly became ruled by a Scots-speaking elite, and Gaelic was sidelined. Besides, David's reforms were very beneficial towards the long-term sucess of Scotland as a state, since as i said also, it started the consolidation of royal power in the country. Besides, technically speaking bringing anglos in shouldn't necessarily expand their position in the Kingdom, the expected result of urban migration is usually for the migrants to go native, unless given greater political power than what would be considered a native. And on that, how could Gaelic expand into the english-speaking core below the Forth, instead of the reverse?

Any additional thoughts are, of course, welcomed :)
 
I am no expert in Scottish history, at most I played Banquo in Macbeth and I can do a passable Lowlander accent so you must take what I write with a grain of salt.
I see this going in two ways, first Scotland stays sovereign longer as there is no house of Stuart, but they eventually go the way of Ireland or Wales and are forcefully incorporated, meaning no United Kingdom but just England. second because Ireland and Scotland are much more similar they come together to keep the English at bay, and maybe an act of union happens between those two. That said, I don´t think Scotland is going to take over English territory by much maybe up to Hadrian´s wall but not much due to English power from their continental holdings
 
IMO English would still be the language of trade and the court. For the sake of legitimacy, Gaelic kings will likely imitate their more presitigious southern neighbour so there would still be a degree of Anglicisation to Scottish culture. I don't think you'd see Gaelic supplant English in the Lothian region. Your best case scenario is having Gaelic survive as a common language long enough for it to become part of the Scottish national identity, at which point it replaces English as the language of court (but likely not trade), and then, assuming everything goes hunky-dory for the Scots into the modern era, Gaelic replaces English as the language of education (basically what Scotland has been attempting to do in recent years in OTL, only with a much stronger base of mostly-Gaelic speakers north of the Forth (and a much more common "we speak Gaelic at home" situation).
 
I am no expert in Scottish history, at most I played Banquo in Macbeth and I can do a passable Lowlander accent so you must take what I write with a grain of salt.
I may ask you to consider your pedigree as of note, few people have both played Banquo in Macbeth (actually, statiscally few people in the world have played in stage at all XD) and are able to do a passable Lallans English, it may not be the most outstanding of pedigrees, but it surely is an unique one! ;)
first Scotland stays sovereign longer as there is no house of Stuart, but they eventually go the way of Ireland or Wales and are forcefully incorporated, meaning no United Kingdom but just England
How England forcefully incorporates Scotland is very relevant here, because before the Wars of Independence it was a fairly common diplomatical stunt for the Scottish king to just recognize the english one as its overlord with no actual difference afterwards (Malcolm III actually did it several times, and these were usually followed by him attacking Northumbria) so although the precedence for Kings of England to try and submit Scotland was always there, usually it was a bit more out of reach than Wales (right by the side) or Ireland (which the English king pretty much privatised to the Anglo-Norman lords anyway), conquering Scotland would require an actual fully royal enterprise with long-term commitment, not dissimilar to...Well, our OTL wars of independence. It can become a proctracted affair very easily, and then you might as well have Scotland become OTL's Ireland 2.0, although if England's incorporation comes early enough, you might have just IOTL Scotland being created under English rule, and "Scots" identity never breaks with the "Northern English" one, the Gaelic areas becoming the main focus of opposition (this scenario, funnily enough, makes it so that "Scots" is still exclusive to the Gaelic meaning of the term).
second because Ireland and Scotland are much more similar they come together to keep the English at bay, and maybe an act of union happens between those two
A Gaelic union is interesting, but ultimately a problem from Ireland's part - For it to unionise we must have someone unifying Ireland (and that's a daunting task if one plays inside the Irish political system, see Brian Boru) or an up-and-coming Scotland doing the job, where the question is "why would they" (specially considering that neutralizing the Norse-Gaels are a more immediate concern). It's important that by the rough time period of available PoDs, Scottish, Manx and Irish Gaelic are pretty much a dialect continuum, it's all a part of what we call "Middle Irish", and may remain so if the two parts keep together from early enough. We also have a parallel for this from OTL's Wars of Independence in Bruce's campaigns in Ireland. Now, if we're speaking later time-wise, butterflies may get us anywhere we want.
don´t think Scotland is going to take over English territory by much maybe up to Hadrian´s wall but not much due to English power from their continental holdings
IOTL Malcolm III had some attempts at pushing the border from the Tweed to the Tyne or even to the Tees, later scottish rulers tried a hand at the same, most notably during the Anarchy, but my thinking is that the more Scotland expands south, the more english influence it has to accomodate - Because of comparatively more english speakers inside its borders. England's continental holdings are not a thing in this, however, the additional strength they give is outbalanced by the geopolitical conflict they generate for the Kings of England. It's way easier for Scotland to best its southern rival in local affairs if England is frequently distracted by feudal wars in France.
IMO English would still be the language of trade and the court. For the sake of legitimacy, Gaelic kings will likely imitate their more presitigious southern neighbour so there would still be a degree of Anglicisation to Scottish culture. I don't think you'd see Gaelic supplant English in the Lothian region. Your best case scenario is having Gaelic survive as a common language long enough for it to become part of the Scottish national identity, at which point it replaces English as the language of court (but likely not trade), and then, assuming everything goes hunky-dory for the Scots into the modern era, Gaelic replaces English as the language of education (basically what Scotland has been attempting to do in recent years in OTL, only with a much stronger base of mostly-Gaelic speakers north of the Forth (and a much more common "we speak Gaelic at home" situation).
English as the language of trade is kinda fated due to geography: Most long-distance trade is happening with England, and in Scotland's side by Englishmen too, since most England-to-Scotland trade will be via Lothian. But court? Not so much, i mean, it wasn't until the Wars of Independence unpopularized Normanisms (due to their association with the enemy - i.e England) and a cadre of Scots-speaking nobles rebuilt the kingdom with a new view, but from what was happening in 1100-1200 to that required a very dramatic and long period of time in scottish history, it's not by any means written in the stars.

Gaelic IOTL did survive long enough to be able to become part of the Scottish national identity, but it didn't because Scottish national identity was kinda set up by the anglic-speaking leaders of the Independence Wars against England, and the main representatives of the Gaelic political sphere inside Scotland (the Lords of the Isles) subsequently were the main oppositors of crown authority in Scotland, and there it came the view of Highland Gaels as a "problem to be solved" that later would develop into the post-union disdain for Highlanders. Besides what i said, your scenario is certainly possible if we take the road where Gaelic is never replaced by a Norman court, south of the Forth remains English and later Scots to the modern-day, borders keep comparatively stable and then in more recent times Gaelic takes over as the go-to education language (Maybe there's hostility due to association of Scots-speakers with England? See the scenario i described to TeluguKhan), but that possibility long-term kinda rests with how Scotland politically develops into the Late Middle Ages and beyond, which is why i think the possible changes of its relations vis-a-vis England are so relevant.
 
...the main representatives of the Gaelic political sphere inside Scotland (the Lords of the Isles) subsequently were the main oppositors of crown authority in Scotland, and there it came the view of Highland Gaels as a "problem to be solved"

Was there a point in Scottish history that the Gaelic political sphere was the main source of support for royal authority, as in as opposed to the less Gaelic parts of the kingdom not being a source of support for it/an actual problem for it?

I know a little about Scottish history, but more "enough to ask questions like this" than have definite answers on a Gaelic-speaking Scotland - it feels like how that would go depends on how much "Gaelic speaking" also means "very like Ireland" in other ways but saying that isn't shedding any light on this.
 
Was there a point in Scottish history that the Gaelic political sphere was the main source of support for royal authority, as in as opposed to the less Gaelic parts of the kingdom not being a source of support for it/an actual problem for it?
That's a good question, i'd say basically the kingdom's entire history up to David I, with him the main source of support became the cadre of Scoto-Norman nobles that he raised personally to establish an actual seigneurial system in Scotland. It's important to notice that these - at least when landed in densely Gaelic population centres - tended to go native after a couple of generations, as one usually expects from Normans, the later Scot/Lallans political class came partly from the ones who took "go native" as "go english" due to being landed 1. In Lothian (Where the main language was already english) or 2. In or around the royal burghs (Where english became the lingua franca between natives, english and continental - mostly flemish - settlers).
it feels like how that would go depends on how much "Gaelic speaking" also means "very like Ireland" in other ways but saying that isn't shedding any light on this.
That's kind of why i decided to put the question out there, though it's ill-advised to parallel it too much with Ireland, outside of the Moray issue, Alba for one was an actual solid polity with some sense of central control, even if it was not in any way "centralized". At the same timeframe, Brian Boru had to effectively fight a dozen kingdoms in his attempts at becoming the actual King of Ireland (as opposed to just claiming High Kingship).

Besides, that's why the PoD matters, as example, you can theoretically get the scenario i'm envisioning from both following on with David's reforms or taking the opposite scenario and avoiding it entirely. And you have to take into account that the things which made anglicization possible in the long-run are also the things that made Scotland more powerful as a state (and that this matters a lot if you consider the constant threats from the Norse-Gaels and England itself). It's a tricky matter.
 
More Gaelic Scotland I can see preserving the marriage/concubinage traditions that stayed prevalent in Ireland- overall a much more tribal society which is a lot more difficult for England to conquer and possibly has a better shot at launching invasions into England in their brief moments of unity and resisting outright conquest.
 
A Gaelic union is interesting, but ultimately a problem from Ireland's part - For it to unionise we must have someone unifying Ireland (and that's a daunting task if one plays inside the Irish political system, see Brian Boru) or an up-and-coming Scotland doing the job, where the question is "why would they" (specially considering that neutralizing the Norse-Gaels are a more immediate concern). It's important that by the rough time period of available PoDs, Scottish, Manx and Irish Gaelic are pretty much a dialect continuum, it's all a part of what we call "Middle Irish", and may remain so if the two parts keep together from early enough. We also have a parallel for this from OTL's Wars of Independence in Bruce's campaigns in Ireland. Now, if we're speaking later time-wise, butterflies may get us anywhere we want.
It's worth pointing out that a "Gaelic Union" doesn't necessarily need to be a case of an independent state, at least at first.

The original Norman conquerors of Ireland in the majority followed the Norse-Gael in the way of mostly assimilating to the language and culture of Ireland at first. It was only with later English settlers and nobles that the process of Anglicization really got going. "More Irish than the Irish" as the saying went.

It's possible to imagine a scenario where a more Gaelic Scotland, conquered in similar ways as Ireland even at a later point, may develop more of a sense of nationalism in common with Ireland in the style of movements like those of the Germans/South Slavs/etc where despite historically never being part of the same state, there is more of a perception of the Scottish and Irish being two sides of the same people, both being united in their forced submission to England.

That could take the shape of one of the nationalist movement revolutions similar to the ones that became more common in the 18th/19th century applying to both Scotland and Ireland and either fighting a war of independence at some point and somehow achieving it against England or, as a compromise, the English king who rules over both goes with the personal union option and just lumps Ireland and Scotland together into one kingdom, becoming "King of the English and the Gaels" or some such in their titles. If under a Personal Union, the Gaelic Kingdom would have a much more equal standing with England than we now think of (especially based on pre-Potato Famine population numbers) and could do a lot to institutionalize and standardize the Gaelic language and identity as well as have a ton of pull in the wider British imperial system, akin to Hungary in Austria-Hungary, or Portugal when it was under Spanish suzerainty, and again, rebellion is always possible.

Such a union would be contingent on a lot of things, obviously. I'm not much of a Scottish history expert, not even a novice really, and have knowledge only of certain stretches of Irish history, but there might still be religious divisions, obvious geographic divisions, political jockeying for power, etc. All of those could prevent a union, but it's no more unreasonable to suggest a stronger Gaelic identity in both could lead to a wider sense of nationalism down the line.
 
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I may ask you to consider your pedigree as of note, few people have both played Banquo in Macbeth (actually, statiscally few people in the world have played in stage at all XD) and are able to do a passable Lallans English, it may not be the most outstanding of pedigrees, but it surely is an unique one! ;)
Thank you, you do me great honour
I feel that whilst England makes war with France would they not make an alliance of España or the Holy Roman Emperor, and thus Western Europe has two alliances, the French and Gaels vs the English and her allies
 
More Gaelic Scotland I can see preserving the marriage/concubinage traditions that stayed prevalent in Ireland- overall a much more tribal society which is a lot more difficult for England to conquer and possibly has a better shot at launching invasions into England in their brief moments of unity and resisting outright conquest.
I'm not sure on how much early Scotland's and Ireland's legal systems parallel'd each other, although the evidence i found gives the vague sense that the earlier we go the more in common they have (what's to be expected), but things like the brehon  judges that titled "Brehon law" survived even normanization of the legal system, and we know that Robert Bruce in the 1300s cited common "customs" (usually law, in that sense) as a reason for the Scots and Irish to be one people.

Anyway, gaelic marriage traditions will inevitably be threatened by the Catholic Church post-reform (the Gregorian one), and IOTL Malcolm III was already taking up the Gregorian mantle in order to boost his legitimacy and powerbase, so i'd say 50/50 to whether it eventually becomes just accepted that gaels do it differently (happened in Ireland, but then England had other plans...) or actually fades out due to the scottish legal system trying to conform.

Elsewise, i agree. Before Lallans political hegemony, Gaelic tribal society was actually synthesizing into the new Norman-inspired feudal system, i mean, we had the popular conception of family/clan and (family) head/chief becoming interchangeable (Already in 1348 the Scottish Parliament referred to the MacDuffs of Fife as specifically a "clan" in legislation) and the developing of every single anglo-norman family who received land in the Gaelic lands into its own fully-gaelic clan, so it's proof that the more tribal nature of gaelic society was very good at adapting and integrating into different models of government, and integrating newcomers into it - For one, i think it would be interesting if something like, e.g., a possible gaelicization of Lothian, resulted in a clan-based adaptation of what's basically Old English society under Gaelic rule. If we assume eventual normanization is fated (not a reasonable assumption, but i'm making it for thought purposes), we can have what's basically "Feudalism 2.0", all the modern popular conceptions of "how feudalism worked", particularly generations-long family vendettas, would be fullfilled - the difference being that instead of knights who look suspiciously french, we have light cavalry and spears! (That is, much better than knights!) :p
It's possible to imagine a scenario where a more Gaelic Scotland, conquered in similar ways as Ireland even at a later point, may develop more of a sense of nationalism in common with Ireland in the style of movements like those of the Germans/South Slavs/etc where despite historically never being part of the same state, there is more of a perception of the Scottish and Irish being two sides of the same people, both being united in their forced submission to England.

That could take the shape of one of the nationalist movement revolutions similar to the ones that became more common in the 18th/19th century applying to both Scotland and Ireland and either fighting a war of independence at some point and somehow achieving it against England or, as a compromise, the English king who rules over both goes with the personal union option and just lumps Ireland and Scotland together into one kingdom, becoming "King of the English and the Gaels" or some such in their titles. If under a Personal Union, the Gaelic Kingdom would have a much more equal standing with England than we now think of (especially based on pre-Potato Famine population numbers) and could do a lot to institutionalize and standardize the Gaelic language and identity as well as have a ton of pull in the wider British imperial system, akin to Hungary in Austria-Hungary, or Portugal when it was under Spanish suzerainty, and again, rebellion is always possible.
That's actually an interesting thought, specially considering historical precedent, as i said in my reply to @Madhukar_Shah, at least as far as the 14th century that was still a perception that the Irish and the Scots were together one people, and once Scots started calling itself, uh, Scots (beforehand they called it  Inglis, i.e English), they started calling Scottish Gaels (previously called Scots) as Erse ("Irish"), so it was very well thought that the Gaelic sphere was one and the same, one might say even that "obviously it was", since Irish and Scottish Gaelic hadn't even splitted up yet by then.

Your scenario assumes a Scotland that is subsumed into England in parallel to Ireland, although i'd assume the timetable of things for Scotland would be a bit further in the line - Because different of Ireland, Scotland would be an actual single polity, and thus would require more than a few poaches of opportunist Anglo-Norman adventurers to submit, especially once the invasion reaches the Forth. The idea of the "Kingdom of the Gaels" is also interesting, although i think it would be much more likely to be achieved by rebellion/independence than by compromise, because Scotland and Ireland subsumed by England would inevitably be legally seen as two intrinsically, traditionally, separate entities, specially considering Scotland would already be a wholesale kingdom (and could very well be under England as a PU), a "Kingdom (or republic, or whatever) of the Gaels" assumes a break in previous political tradition which usually comes with breaking with the current authority, your examples do not exactly line up because Portugal under Spain was more of a Scotland-with-colonies under England but with the medieval population parity, and Hungary in Austro-Hungary was possible because the Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen were already a concept without the Compromise. That said, future united nationalism is surely a good conceptualization.
 
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