Maximum extent of Umayyad expansion in Francia, and vice versa?

[Deleted member 114175]

Although the Battle of Tours was not the clear turning point it is often thought to be, the Umayyads still made it pretty far into the Frankish realm(s). The Battle of Tours, albeit mostly a raid, did have significant effects on the popularity of Charles Martel, the founder of the Carolingian dynasty, so it had important internal effects among the Franks.

Whether it's a consequence of an altered Battle of Tours or not, how far could the Umayyads have expanded into Francia? This could be done by taking direct control, or by sending raids and exacting tribute.

On the other side, how far could the Franks have expanded into Spain, with a POD any time from the Umayyad conquest of the Visigoths to the death of Charlemagne?

How would other events of the time period, such as the Berber Revolt and Abbasid Revolution, be affected by changes in France and Iberia?

 

[Planet of Hats]

I think it'd be tough for the Umayyads to push much beyond Septimania and maaaaaybe some of Aquitaine. Even Iberia was a stretch for them; in the 720s, the Umayyads were considering outright abandoning it because, logistically, it was just too distant to effectively govern. Any Umayyad presence in the region would require a heavy reliance on Berbers from the Maghreb, and the Umayyads traditionally did not treat Berbers all that well. A Berber Revolt is very likely, as OTL, which further curtails Umayyad expansiveness.

It's certainly possible to have a later Berber Revolt before which a Umayyad governor in Iberia secures more solid control over the Cantabrians and Septimania, and maybe even pushing up to the Garonne if they start rolling a string of lucky 6's on the dice of life, but I can't see them pushing into northern Francia in a capacity much more serious than raids, nor can I see their presence north of the Pyrenees being especially permanent.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

I think it'd be tough for the Umayyads to push much beyond Septimania and maaaaaybe some of Aquitaine. Even Iberia was a stretch for them; in the 720s, the Umayyads were considering outright abandoning it because, logistically, it was just too distant to effectively govern. Any Umayyad presence in the region would require a heavy reliance on Berbers from the Maghreb, and the Umayyads traditionally did not treat Berbers all that well. A Berber Revolt is very likely, as OTL, which further curtails Umayyad expansiveness.

It's certainly possible to have a later Berber Revolt before which a Umayyad governor in Iberia secures more solid control over the Cantabrians and Septimania, and maybe even pushing up to the Garonne if they start rolling a string of lucky 6's on the dice of life, but I can't see them pushing into northern Francia in a capacity much more serious than raids, nor can I see their presence north of the Pyrenees being especially permanent.

Could the Umayyad leadership try to create a "release valve" for tensions between the Arabs and Berbers by sending the more violent of the laters as "Marcher Lords" north of the Pyrenees; creating nominal vassals in Septimania and what would later become Gascony to act as buffers between them and the Frankish court while keeping potential insurgents busy and creating positions with which to reward loyal Berber leaders?

 

[Planet of Hats]

Could the Umayyad leadership try to create a "release valve" for tensions between the Arabs and Berbers by sending the more violent of the laters as "Marcher Lords" north of the Pyrenees; creating nominal vassals in Septimania and what would later become Gascony to act as buffers between them and the Frankish court while keeping potential insurgents busy and creating positions with which to reward loyal Berber leaders?

That's not really how the relationship with the Berbers worked. The Umayyads had a real hierarchical approach, which is what infuriated the Abbasids and led to the revolution. In the Umayyad worldview, Arabs were the ruling class and non-Arab Muslims were not rulers. The Umayyads largely treated Berbers like goons, looked down on them, used them as cannon fodder and continued to force them to pay the dhimmi tax even if they converted to Islam. They were really second-class citizens in the Umayyad paradigm. Also important is that many of these Berbers were only nominally Muslim, many being very recent conversos, and their societal structure often resulted in clan loyalties being more important than religious ones.

The Umayyad model was almost always to send an Arab governor to rule over territories they captured. Part of the problem for expansion in Iberia is that al-Andalus was ultimately governed out of Ifriqiya and the ranking Umayyad governor was actually based in Kairouan in modern Tunisia.

The Arabs actually did send Berbers to man the frontier, and for a time they did roll back the harsh taxation of Muslim Berbers. But it didn't stop the mistreatment, there were constant mutinies, and the taxes were brought back in the end anyway. And the Berbers were generally mutinous enough - and receptive enough to Kharijite preachings - that some kind of Berber blow-up is bound to happen. In any case, you'd need a radical mindset change in the Umayyads' upper echelons to get around the dynastic aversion to non-Arab Muslims.

 

[Deleted member 114175]

Even Iberia was a stretch for them; in the 720s, the Umayyads were considering outright abandoning it because, logistically, it was just too distant to effectively govern.

Do you have a source that says the Umayyads considered abandoning Iberia?

That could be an interesting story on its own, along the lines of Britain being abandoned by the Romans and then Sub-Roman Britain becoming a battleground between different powers.

The Umayyads depart from Hispania right after the Gothic ruling class was fragmented and defeated. In the resulting confusion and lack of order, various groups of Arab/Muladi, Visigoth, Hispano-Roman, and Basque/Cantabrian states battle for control of Iberia, establishing small principalities and kingdoms. In the chaos, Berbers send military expeditions from the south and Franks do the same from the north, both attempting to conglomerate larger kingdoms. Just as Berbers and Franks attempt to unite Iberia in two competing spheres in the ninth century, however, this happens to be the age of increased Arab piracy and Viking raids, threatening to tear apart the unifying kingdoms once again but also providing the final impetus to reunite Iberia.

 

[Planet of Hats]

Do you have a source that says the Umayyads considered abandoning Iberia?

That could be an interesting story on its own, along the lines of Britain being abandoned by the Romans and then Sub-Roman Britain becoming a battleground between different powers.

The Umayyads depart from Hispania right after the Gothic ruling class was fragmented and defeated. In the resulting confusion and lack of order, various groups of Arab/Muladi, Visigoth, Hispano-Roman, and Basque/Cantabrian states battle for control of Iberia, establishing small principalities and kingdoms. In the chaos, Berbers send military expeditions from the south and Franks do the same from the north, both attempting to conglomerate larger kingdoms. Just as Berbers and Franks attempt to unite Iberia in two competing spheres in the ninth century, however, this happens to be the age of increased Arab piracy and Viking raids, threatening to tear apart the unifying kingdoms once again but also providing the final impetus to reunite Iberia.

I can't lay my hands on a primary source at the moment, but Thomas F. Glick mentions in Islamic and Christian Spain in the Early Middle Ages that Caliph Umar II is said to have written to the wali as-Samh, considering pulling out of Spain because of how few the Muslims' numbers were. As-Samh wrote back and basically bluffed him by claiming Muslims were a large part of the population. In 720.