Margarethe of Austria, Electress of Saxony

JonasResende · Jan 6, 2015

An interesting tidbit that I found on the German wikipedia's article on Friedrich the Wise of Saxony (yes, Luther's patron), says that he petitioned both Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian and the Pope for a dispensation/permission to marry the twice widowed Margarethe of Austria, formerly both Princess of the Asturias and duchess of Savoy. Apparently, the refusal of this request played a big role in his decisions during the Reformation. Friedrich never married, but had several illegitimate children. However, I was thinking, that although the film Luther portrays Friedrich as taking far more of an interest in Luther than he OTL did, if the permission/dispensation had been granted, his reaction might be different. Hell, he might even decide he's willing to stand for the Imperial Election (as several people wanted him to) after Maximilian died.

What do you think? Sane? Or ASB?

Emperor Constantine · Jan 6, 2015

The Problem with that is Margaret had vowed to never remarry after the death of her second husband Duke Philibert II of Savoy. Even if he got a dispensation she would have said no, and as she was acting as Regent in the Netherlands for her nephew Charles, I can't see her going back on that vow. She would be more likely to take holy vows if her father tried to force the issue.

Janprimus · Jan 7, 2015

@ JonasResende: if elector Fredrick the Wise would have managed to get Margaret of Austria's hand in marriage, he also wouldn't have been a candidate in the Imperial Election either. He would have been even more pro-Habsburg due to his marital ties. Frederick didn't have the pockets Charles of Habsburg or Francis of France had. Well the latter two had for more collateral to be able to get substantial loans.

Margaret of Austria had spend part of her childhood at the French court, since the treaty of Arras had betrothed her to the future Charles VIII of France. Her stay there was not pleasant, and finally the betrothal was broken off, when Charles ended up marrying Anne of Brittany instead (in part to prevent Maximilian of Austria from marrying Anne). Margaret seemed to have remained staunchly anti-French for the rest of her life. She was also quite unlike that both her husbands died quite young.

Anyway I can see Frederick and any children Frederick and Margaret might have ITTL pursuing anti-French politics, which would place them on the pro-Habsburg side (almost by default).

JonasResende · May 11, 2016

Janprimus said:
@ JonasResende: if elector Fredrick the Wise would have managed to get Margaret of Austria's hand in marriage, he also wouldn't have been a candidate in the Imperial Election either. He would have been even more pro-Habsburg due to his marital ties. Frederick didn't have the pockets Charles of Habsburg or Francis of France had. Well the latter two had for more collateral to be able to get substantial loans.

Margaret of Austria had spend part of her childhood at the French court, since the treaty of Arras had betrothed her to the future Charles VIII of France. Her stay there was not pleasant, and finally the betrothal was broken off, when Charles ended up marrying Anne of Brittany instead (in part to prevent Maximilian of Austria from marrying Anne). Margaret seemed to have remained staunchly anti-French for the rest of her life. She was also quite unlike that both her husbands died quite young.

Anyway I can see Frederick and any children Frederick and Margaret might have ITTL pursuing anti-French politics, which would place them on the pro-Habsburg side (almost by default).

Reviving an old thread because I think there can be a bit more mileage out of it.

For instance, if we handwave Margarethe and Friedrich to get married, what effects might their probably anti-French heirs have? Would Friedrich move to Margarethe's capital or Margarethe to Friedrich's capital (and if the latter, who might Maximilian appoint in her stead as regent of the Netherlands?)

Secondly, what effect might this have, if Friedrich moves to the Netherlands, and leave his brother as regent of Saxony? How might he react to the mad monk Brother Martin when the 95 Theses comes up?

JonasResende · May 11, 2016

No thoughts?

JonasResende · May 12, 2016

Bumping along

JonasResende · May 16, 2016

Another bump for this

JonasResende · May 17, 2016

Is anyone aware of any reason Margarethe wouldn't be able to give Fritz heirs? Like for instance, her daughter's birth rendered her barren? Or is that something else that can be handwaved since we have no concrete evidence that that was the case?

JonasResende · May 21, 2016

A curious thought, say Margarethe moves to Saxony on her marriage, and besides having 4-5 kids (2/3 survive), everything else goes OTL, how might she respond to Luther? Her nieces, Elisabeth and Mary, displayed such an interest in the Reformed faith that it was considered necessary by the Habsburgs to announce that Elisabeth died a convinced Catholic. What were Margarethe's views on the "new" faith, and might she have any influence on her husband/children's view on it?

Kellan Sullivan · May 21, 2016

JonasResende said:
Is anyone aware of any reason Margarethe wouldn't be able to give Fritz heirs? Like for instance, her daughter's birth rendered her barren? Or is that something else that can be handwaved since we have no concrete evidence that that was the case?

It might be that Margarethe's second marriage was simply not long enough for there to have been children. Although, to be fair to Margarethe, her mother only had three, her maternal grandmother only one, and her paternal five/six, of whom only two survived infancy. (I mean her brother seems to be a case in point, he's rumored to have been quite the Casanova among the ladies (something that made his mad wife even madder), but there's no record (that I've found) of any bastard children (and I really don't think that condoms were a big thing amongst 16th century royals).

But I think Gretchen will be able to manage at least three.

As to her take on the Reformed faith - she seems to have been a case of live and let live during her tenure in the Netherlands, but it could simply be that the faith wasn't established enough as opposed to her niece and great-niece's governments. However, a marriage between Fritz and Gretchen it might make for interesting times. For one, Fritz would have no reason to side against the emperor and co., so he might just turn Martin over to whoever the minute it starts getting too hot under Rome's collar. Especially since Leo X's only reason (that I'm aware) of awarding him the Golden Rose was as sort of a bribe to encourage him to stand in the 1518 Imperial Elections against François I of France and Carlos I of Spain.

However, having little half-Habsburgs on the Reformed side could make for some fun. Especially once the Reformation gathers momentum. None of the German princes at the time of the Reformation (besides Bavaria (which stayed Catholic) had any closer link to the Habsburgs than the generation of Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich III. In this situation, the non-Catholic party makes can claim that the Habsburgs have neglected imperial government in favor of Spain/Burgundy, and at the next election push forward a half-Saxonian, half-Habsburg princeling as a candidate for the throne. True the Hohenzollerns wouldn't go for it (their running feud with the Wettins being ironically what kick-started the reformation (Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz being a Hohenzollern, who levied church taxes in Germany to pay for his purchase of his cardinalate)), but the only support the Habsburgs might have are them and perhaps the king of Bohemia (if he isn't a Habsburg). IDK how the Wittelsbachs might take it, but as I say, things could start looking interesting at the next election.

Kynan · May 21, 2016

Frederick III, Elector of Saxony (b.1463: d.1525) m. Margaret of Austria (b.1480: d.1530) (a)

1a) Margaret of Saxony (b.1507: d.1511)

2a) Mary of Saxony (b.1509: d.1588) m. Joachim II Hector, Elector of Brandenburg (b.1505: d.1571) (a)

1a) Miscarriage (c.1527)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1528)

3a) Barbara of Brandenburg (c.1530)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1532)

5a) George, Elector of Brandenburg (b.1534)

6a) Miscarriage (c.1535)

7a) Magdalena of Brandenburg (b.1538)

8a) Sigismund of Brandenburg, Archbishop of Magdeburg and Bishop of Halberstadt (b.1541: d.1544)

9a) Miscarriage (c.1544)

10a) Miscarriage (c.1545)

3a) John of Saxony (b.1510: d.1512)

4a) Elisabeth of Saxony (b.1513: d.1530) m. Louis II d'Orléans, Duke of Longueville (b.1510: d.1537) (a)

1a) Michelle d'Orleans (b.1536)

5a) Frederick IV, Elector of Saxony (b.1517: d.1560) m. Maria of Portugal (b.1521: d.1577) (a)

1a) Margaret of Saxony (b.1542)

2a) John Maximilian I, Elector of Saxony (b.1545)

JonasResende · May 23, 2016

@Kynan, Louis d'Orléans is a) French and b) relatively unimportant to be getting a half-archduchess. No way that marriage is going through. And as to Friedrich IV, I would say a more likely match for him is somewhere in Germany - the only places outside Germany Saxony really farmed out to for spouses in those years was Denmark or Poland. Maybe a match with Isabella or Sophie of Poland instead?