Map Thread XXII

50 Years after the 2nd Punic War
3DfDAoT.png

50 Years after the 2nd Punic War, or the 2nd Latin War as the Carthaginians call it, the Western Mediterranean is a Carthaginian Lake. The titular Republic of Rome burns in fury as its once capital is rebuilt in a new Carthaginian image and is hemmed in from the north by the Cisalpine Gauls and the south by the Carthaginian South Italian Satellite States. The days of Roman Glory are clearly over. The Iberian peninsula is almost entirely Carthaginian and even where their soldiers do not garrison Iberia, the tribes submit to the authority of Carthage. But all is not well. The very means with which Hannibal I ascended to the renewed throne of Carthage is controversial and whilst his son and successor Hannibal II has been a competent ruler, two new challengers rise from the east. As the Ptolemids crumble and a new native dynasty takes over in Egypt, this new dynasty watches Carthaginian influence in Cyrenaica with distrustful eyes and to the north the resurgent Kingdom of Macedonia has already been granted a foothold in Italy. To the east, in the land of the Shahanshah's rumors about a great new Empire ruled under the glory of a new Zoroastrian Shah who has thrown the Seleucid Rule away arise. The Persians are also clear in their ambitions to return all Achaemenid territory under their heel once more. A great confluence of Empires is beginning once again and as such a storm is brewing. The question remains, can Carthage weather the storm?

Thoughts?
How is there a Republic of Rome without Rome?
 
The Romans keep the name despite the burnt and salted ashes ruin of the city of Rome. First in order to spite the Carthaginians and Second cause they're stubborn like that
They'll get it back... one day...
But...there would be no Romans left. In those days there wasn't much to Roman citizenry beyond the walls of Rome and a few colonia sprinkled around. Almost all the territory on the map belonged to Rome's Italian allies prior to the war. Why would they accept remaining under the dominion of a destroyed people (Rome) when they could simply reassert their independence? After all it took a couple centuries of wars to unite the Latins and some other Italians under Roman rule. The Etruscans, Picentines, Sabines, Frentani, Umbrians, the list goes on and on. Read up on the Socii.
 
But...there would be no Romans left. In those days there wasn't much to Roman citizenry beyond the walls of Rome and a few colonia sprinkled around. Almost all the territory on the map belonged to Rome's Italian allies prior to the war. Why would they accept remaining under the dominion of a destroyed people (Rome) when they could simply reassert their independence? After all it took a couple centuries of wars to unite the Latins and some other Italians under Roman rule. The Etruscans, Picentines, Sabines, Frentani, Umbrians, the list goes on and on. Read up on the Socii.
the region of what we know today as Latium was already Roman Citizens by the time of the 1st Punic War and that had extended to cities like Pisae, Hadria, Asculum etc by the 2nd. There is still a strong base of Roman citizens in the area. Not to mention all the Romans citizens fleeing from Southern Italy settling down again in remaining 'Roman' Territory. With their already strong and remaining legions, they keep a hold of the Latin regions
 
Fourth map in my CP victory scenario
1707438177288.png

"For 200 years the British and the French exploited the generosity of the Turkish people, and through this exploitation the most glorious empire of the Turkish people was almost destroyed, taking her resources and her lands for themselves. But look what they have accomplished with but 40 years of friendship with the German people. From the Berlin-Baghdad railraid, to the battlefield, to the Trans-Mesopotamian pipeline. The turks have reasserted themselves hegemons of Asia and together the Turkish-German friendship will continue for years to come" -Hermann Müller, German Minister of Foreign Affairs, 1935

"The next war will be won by whoever can get the most oil to the frontlines." Albert Speer, Chief architect of the Trans-Mesopotamian Pipeline 1936.



The Rich Man of Asia: Ottoman Empire Reborn
Following the end of the end of the Great War the Ottomans found themselves in not much better of a position than they were before it. Racked with debt and internal strife from all corners of the empire. For all intents and purposes the Ottomans looked to be on the brink of collapse, and as the Habsburg empire collapsed many could see the writing on the wall. However, this would not be the case however narrowly.


In the aftermath of the war The Committee of Union and Progress ruled the empire as a single party state, but as many thousands of young men returned home from the war, many of whom were disaffected by promised reforms of the CUP, as well as poor conditions for workers. General strikes erupted across the country in many industries. On September 1st 1920 The Freedom and Accord Party would be reformed and quickly took up the banner of freedom, promising constitutional reforms, free elections and greater autonomy for minorities within the empire. The FA party would shortly thereafter form a paramilitary group known as the Freedom Army, which saw many thousands of Great War veterans joining up.

Over the next two years the CUP would increasingly crackdown on FA party activities, and these punishments would lead to even more strife within the empire. Gradually the CUP began to lose its hold on the empire.

On July 24th 1922 the FA party led by the Freedom party would launch a coup taking the city of Constantinople. The CUP would be overthrown and disbanded with many of its leaders tried for warcrimes, ostensibly for their role in the Armenian genocide.

In the new government much of the nationalistic policies would be toned down as the Freedom and Action party gradually began to make liberal reforms. A new constitution would be written in 1927 turning The Ottoman Empire into a true liberal constitutional monarchy with, relatively, free elections.

Black Gold:

Prior to the Great War the Turkish Petroleum Company would form. However, the Great War would breakout before any major oil discoveries in the ottoman territories would occur. The TPC would not see themselves gain any concessions until 1925 at the Conference of Ankara when the Turkish government would meet with German, Bulgarian and Austrian investors to discuss concessions to the TPC as well as what to do with the 50% of the company owned by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company as well as the 15% owned by Calouste Gulbenkian, and the 20% owned by the recently dissolved National Bank of Turkey an Armenian businessman by birth but British by citizenship. The slowly reforming Ottoman Empire as well as their German benefactors would not abide even more British dominance of oil in the region, the massively growing Persian oil industry, as well as the already huge Soviet and American industries meant that Mitteleuropa, if it were to be truly dominate would need its own oil empire. Eventually the Ankara conference would decide that TPC would be split as follows: 35% would go to Deutche Bank, 20% to Ottoil (subsidary of the Ottoman bank) 10% to be sold on German market, 10% to be sold on the Austro-Hungarian market, 10% sold on the Ottoman market, 5% on the Bulgarian market and 10% open to foreign investiture. TPC would be granted rights to extract any oil within Ottoman territory (except Bahrain which would not join the Empire until several years later.)

Less than 6 months after the Conference of Ankara the first oil would be discovered in Kirkuk with production beginning in 1927. 4 years later an even larger oil field would be discovered in Al-Ahsa and production would begin there in 1934.

By 1940 the Ottoman Empire would be producing 8.1 metric tons of oil per year, putting it as the 5th largest oil producing country in the world.
The Turkish Petroleum country controls 90% of the oil produced within the Ottoman borders with most of the rest coming from Bahrain where Texaco controls nearly all the oil production.

Ownership of TPC in 1940 is as follows:
37% German-Turkish Petroleum Company (DT-Erdo) subsidiary of Deutche Bank
23% Ottoil
9% Preussag
8% Texaco
6% German-American Petroleum Company
3% Bank of Vienna
3% Esso-Arabia
2% Standard Oil of New Jersey
9% Other

 
Last edited:
the region of what we know today as Latium was already Roman Citizens by the time of the 1st Punic War and that had extended to cities like Pisae, Hadria, Asculum etc by the 2nd. There is still a strong base of Roman citizens in the area. Not to mention all the Romans citizens fleeing from Southern Italy settling down again in remaining 'Roman' Territory. With their already strong and remaining legions, they keep a hold of the Latin regions

The strong and remaining legions that failed to defend their capital city against a foreign army from across the sea? This is a map of Roman and Allied territory in 100 BC...that is 100 years after the Second Punic War. As you can see about half the territory is still governed by the Allies which had their own municipia, governments, etc. (in pink). Roman territory in green, Latin in red. So you can imagine 100 years prior to this map, before many Italians dying in foreign wars and losing their farms to Roman and Latin farmers and latifundia owners, the map would've been a little less green. Certainly to the north in the Apennines; the Gauls still ruled up in the Po valley. For example the map shows Ravenna as part of the magic republic, when in OTL Ravenna wasn't even Roman territory until 89 BC. Prior to that it remained Allied territory. I find it exceedingly unlikely the Ravennese would choose to become citizens of a people who have totally lost a devastating war.
The_Growth_of_Roman_Power_in_Italy.jpg

Ask the Eastern Roman Emperors
:noexpression:
 
The strong and remaining legions that failed to defend their capital city against a foreign army from across the sea? This is a map of Roman and Allied territory in 100 BC...that is 100 years after the Second Punic War. As you can see about half the territory is still governed by the Allies which had their own municipia, governments, etc. (in pink). Roman territory in green, Latin in red. So you can imagine 100 years prior to this map, before many Italians dying in foreign wars and losing their farms to Roman and Latin farmers and latifundia owners, the map would've been a little less green. Certainly to the north in the Apennines; the Gauls still ruled up in the Po valley. For example the map shows Ravenna as part of the magic republic, when in OTL Ravenna wasn't even Roman territory until 89 BC. Prior to that it remained Allied territory. I find it exceedingly unlikely the Ravennese would choose to become citizens of a people who have totally lost a devastating war.
The_Growth_of_Roman_Power_in_Italy.jpg


:noexpression:
The Socii were the first to loose their manpower in the 2nd Punic War. By the end of the war, they literally told Rome they had no more men to send..even manhandled legions could suppress them. Socii representatives as far as the 3rd Punic War mentioned how depleted of manpower they still were 60 years afterwards.
 
The strong and remaining legions that failed to defend their capital city against a foreign army from across the sea? This is a map of Roman and Allied territory in 100 BC...that is 100 years after the Second Punic War. As you can see about half the territory is still governed by the Allies which had their own municipia, governments, etc. (in pink). Roman territory in green, Latin in red. So you can imagine 100 years prior to this map, before many Italians dying in foreign wars and losing their farms to Roman and Latin farmers and latifundia owners, the map would've been a little less green. Certainly to the north in the Apennines; the Gauls still ruled up in the Po valley. For example the map shows Ravenna as part of the magic republic, when in OTL Ravenna wasn't even Roman territory until 89 BC. Prior to that it remained Allied territory. I find it exceedingly unlikely the Ravennese would choose to become citizens of a people who have totally lost a devastating war.
The_Growth_of_Roman_Power_in_Italy.jpg


:noexpression:
The South also had many former allied lands taken by Rome after the Punik Wars, the majority outside Central Italy even, especialy those tribes and cities who sided with Hannibal.
 
The Socii were the first to loose their manpower in the 2nd Punic War. By the end of the war, they literally told Rome they had no more men to send..even manhandled legions could suppress them. Socii representatives as far as the 3rd Punic War mentioned how depleted of manpower they still were 60 years afterwards.
You're exactly right! That's why I can't believe they would cleave to Romans. It's like asking for a second ass whooping later on. I find it more likely they'd go independent or reform as some Italian Confederation, and remind the Carthaginians they are not Romans, and pretty please could they leave them alone to rebuild their devastated homelands?
 
image.png

This was supposed to be modern-day Europe I think, there's very little lore or reason aside from making it look anachronistic to the modern eye tho so idk why anything is the way it is
Surviving PLC makes sense though and Rumelia from Ottoman Albanian eyalets make sense
 
Obviously I'm not the mapmaker, so I can't say for certain, but it looks like a Janissary state or something; i.e. still ruled by an appendage of the Ottoman Empire rather than being a cobbled-together ethnic federation like Yugoslavia or something.

So it is ratherly some kind of extremely byreocratic and corrupt stratocracy?
 
In which I try to engineer a broader "world war" in the classical world.

(Disclaimer: I came up with this scenario before I saw Sarthak's post, so this is not in any way related to his own and far superior map)

the PoD is that Carthage wins the First Punic War, defeating Rome at sea. Italy itself remains largely untouched so Rome is merely whipped, not broken. Shut out of the western Mediterranean by Carthage, Rome expands north and east into the Adriatic, where they come up against Antigonid Macedon and their own empire-building efforts in Greece, and the two nations quickly become rivals.
In Carthage, Hamilcar Barca is initially hailed as a hero for defeating the Romans, but his newfound power and status come into conflict with the Carthaginian senate. Annoyed and angry, he basically ends up emulating what Caesar did in Gaul a couple centuries early, sailing to Spain as he did IOTL to carve out territory for himself to increase his powerbase.
The Seleucid empire goes through a series of weak kings, while Egypt under Ptolemy III is prevented from taking advantage of the situation by a series of native revolts. In 222 in Macedon the young and diplomatically-minded king Demetrius III (Philip V was butterflied) comes to power, and he makes common cause with the Seleucid king Antiochus III (who was not butterflied) to form a pact agreeing to coordinate each other's foreign policies and fight together. If one fights, the other will, etc. Carthage had erstwhile signed an alliance with Macedon (in a sort of cousin to OTL's Carthage-Macedon treaty) wanting to check Rome's expansion in the east as well.
So in 218 BC (coincidentally when the 2nd Punic War starts) when Macedon moves against the Aetolian League to seize some border towns, the Aetolian League appeals to Rome for help. Epirus also joins in against Macedon hoping to seize Macedonian territory. Meanwhile in Egypt Ptolemy III dies and is succeeded by his son Ptolemy IV, who kills many of his relatives in order to secure the throne. His uncle Lysimachus escapes to Syria and is welcomed by the court of Antiochus III, who decides to invade Egypt to press Lysimachus' claim to the Egyptian throne. Carthage, meanwhile, decides to honor the Carthaginian-Macedonian pact to cut Rome down to size once and for all.
And thus, the entire Mediterranean in 218 BC is at war.

And the map.
Blue indicates the 'Macedonian alliance' of the Seleucids and Macedon, with lighter blue indicating Carthage and the Achaean League, who were not bound to the Macedonian alliance initially but through national interest or other alliance decided to wage a war as co-belligerents
Red indicates Rome and Egypt, who are not actually allied at all and not connected at all except for the fact that they're being attacked by the 'Macedonian alliance'. Lighter red are Epirus and the Aetolian league, who are anti-Macedonian and waging war against Macedon for similar reasons as Carthage and the Achaean league.

1707423473052.png
 
Third map in CP victory series

Following the German victory in the Great War, British forces return occupied German colonies in Africa, in exchange for Germans withdrawing from Asia, dropping all claims in China and in Polynesia. Germany gains small amounts of territory from France.

In their peace with the Ottomans, the British are forced to give independence to Egypt but keep control over the canal zone. Both the Ottomans and the British agree to drop claims on Egypt.
When did Germany take the continental portion of Spanish Guinea? Presumably they just bought it?
 
Top