Make Austria's, Hungary's, Romania's, Bulgaria’s, Italy's, and Japan's World War 2 reputation more negative

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

Austria after World War 2 claimed to be the victim of Nazi Germany. However, this has been proven false, as many Austrians feeling bitter about World War 1 and seeing themselves as Germans willingly joined Germany. The myth was invented after World War 2 by Austrian politicians in order to extract blame from themselves over World War 2. Overtime, the myth had died down and more and more people today accept Austria was not the victim, nevertheless, the myth still occasionally carries on. Many Hungarians and Romanians claim to be unwilling participants of Axis, even though for Hungary's case, this was absolutely not true. Hungary like Germany was bitter about World War 1 and therefore was a natural ally of German, same with Bulgaria. Italy is not as negatively depicted in popular media as evil as Germany is and Japan has a a denialist culture. However, with a POD of 1945, how can you make these nations seen as equally evil as Nazi Germany?

 

[Deleted member 96212]

However, with a POD of 1945, how can you make these nations seen as equally evil as Nazi Germany?

It would be hard to do. The Cold War is on, so Italy and Japan's numerous crimes are pretty much guaranteed to be glossed over. Austria, Romania, and Hungary are both relatively irrelevant on the world stage, so it'd be simultaneously easier and harder to emphasize their heinous actions.

Your best bet is an earlier POD where Italy and Japan conduct atrocities that are worse than they were OTL. For Italy that shouldn't be too hard, but considering the massive amounts of bloodletting Japan did in WWII and still having gotten away with a relatively clean reputation in the West, I'm not sure how bad the IJA would need to conduct itself before you could get their war crimes to be given the visibility of the Holocaust. You might need something like IJA troops doing a Nanking to Sydney Australia, or Hawaii, but that has its own problems with feasibility.

 

[Avrorrange]

Depends on where you are from really.In China for example(and presumably a lot of areas in Asia),Japan is seen as far worse than Nazi Germany.

 

[anotherlurker]

>>Japan

Is such a thing even possible?

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

It would be hard to do. The Cold War is on, so Italy and Japan's numerous crimes are pretty much guaranteed to be glossed over. Austria, Romania, and Hungary are both relatively irrelevant on the world stage, so it'd be simultaneously easier and harder to emphasize their heinous actions.

Your best bet is an earlier POD where Italy and Japan conduct atrocities that are worse than they were OTL. For Italy that shouldn't be too hard, but considering the massive amounts of bloodletting Japan did in WWII and still having gotten away with a relatively clean reputation in the West, I'm not sure how bad the IJA would need to conduct itself before you could get their war crimes to be given the visibility of the Holocaust. You might need something like IJA troops doing a Nanking to Sydney Australia, or Hawaii, but that has its own problems with feasibility.

I’m angry that Austria managed to pull off such a myth, and it’s a good thing it’s now dying down now. Doesn’t Austria pay reparations for World War 2?

 

[Deleted member 96212]

>>Japan

Is such a thing even possible?

Like I said, you'd need Australia or Hawaii to be given the Nanking treatment, and it's going to be hard, if not impossible, to even achieve those circumstances.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

Like I said, you'd need Australia or Hawaii to be given the Nanking treatment, and it's going to be hard, if not impossible, to even achieve those circumstances.

In other words, not enough White people suffered atrocities?

 

[Deleted member 96212]

In other words, not enough White people suffered atrocities?

Basically. Which in and of itself sounds insane considering how many Western POWs were tortured to death by Japan, but evidently that wasn't enough for OTL Imperial Japan to be held on the same level as the Nazis.

 

[MusuMankata]

Austria after World War 2 claimed to be the victim of Nazi Germany. However, this has been proven false, as many Austrians feeling bitter about World War 1 and seeing themselves as Germans willingly joined Germany. The myth was invented after World War 2 by Austrian politicians in order to extract blame from themselves over World War 2. Overtime, the myth had died down and more and more people today accept Austria was not the victim, nevertheless, the myth still occasionally carries on. Many Hungarians and Romanians claim to be unwilling participants of Axis, even though for Hungary's case, this was absolutely not true. Hungary like Germany was bitter about World War 1 and therefore was a natural ally of Germany. Italy is not as negatively depicted in popular media as evil as Germany is and Japan has a a denialist culture. However, with a POD of 1945, how can you make these nations seen as equally evil as Nazi Germany?

For Italy it's easy: make them not be a pushover anywhere, as well as ensure that the Salò Republic stands up for a few more months, enough to make death camps much like Risiera di San Sabba possible for extra measure. Part of why Italy's war crimes get glossed over is because they aren't taken very seriously to begin with, after all. Had Italy put up a dogged resistance, I'm pretty sure that neither the Jugoslavian purges nor the massacres in Greece would've been glossed over to the point of being thought of as German atrocities by the descendants of their survivors.

Hungary, Romania and Austria are tougher. Hungary and Romania because they were pretty irrelevant in the war itself, so you'd need their soldiers to be incredibly nasty to every single civilian crossing their path (not an easy task if you're the Nazis' ally, as you can imagine); Austria because, by the time WW2 started, as far as everyone was concerned they were just a region of Germany, their willing annexation be damned, and presumably punishing it would've felt like punishing Bavaria in particular.

Japan... I've heard that part of why Japan didn't get as much of a bad rep, at least in Anglo countries (elsewhere it can be chalked up to the same reason for why India and China are cavalier towards Nazis), has to do with the then-current racism: during the war, most people in Allied countries felt that the Japanese were inherently not as human as them, and their warlikeness cemented this percieved fact in the eyes of the Allied public, so atrocities committed by them were considered par to the course; but when the war was over, as the racism subdued and they started to be seen as fully human at last (IIRC, it was at this point in time that race-based "Yellow Peril" subdued), their atrocities felt overblown by wartime propaganda and so they were strongly doubted. Given the situation, I think you're going to need a widespread belief that the Japanese were "civilized Europeans stranded in Asia a long time ago" or something similar way before WW2, so that their atrocities could feel as shocking as Nazi atrocities.

 

[Avrorrange]

Basically. Which in and of itself sounds insane considering how many Western POWs were tortured to death by Japan, but evidently that wasn't enough for OTL Imperial Japan to be held on the same level as the Nazis.

If Operation Cherry Blossoms at night succeeded then it would get that bad.

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

I’m angry that Austria managed to pull off such a myth, and it’s a good thing it’s now dying down now. Doesn’t Austria pay reparations for World War 2?

I'll be honest, it sounds like you have a serious axe to grind here for some reason that you haven't made us party to, but on Austria, Hungary and Romania, which I know the most about, its because they didn't really do much that could be attributed to the nation as a whole as Germany's crimes could be.

Austria as a nation in fact did nothing because it ceased to exist as a nation after being annexed by the Germans in 1938. I would therefore argue that you can't punish the new post war Republic of Austria anymore than you can punish Vichy France. You can punish Austrian war criminals, as indeed was done, or if you're feeling particularly vindicative, the Austrian people in some fashion but the point remains that Austria did not exist as a nation during WW2 and the worst crimes of the Nazis. The fact that they voted to join Germany in 1938 (against the best efforts of the Austrian government incidentally and in a referendum carried out under Nazi supervision) does really make them culpable for the subsequent crimes against humanity of the state that they were annexed by.

As for Hungary, Horthy was famously opposed to Hitler and his policies, he was using Hitler as a means to an end to try and regain 'rightful Hungarian territory'. That in itself should be condemned, but doesn't make them as evil as the Nazis. Now, Hungary did eventually cooperate somewhat with the Holocaust but this was only after Operation Panzerfaust against Horthy and when the Arrow Cross Party was installed as a Nazi puppet government. Thus you have a similar situation to Austria. Hungary can't be blamed for the worst crimes because they were a Nazi puppet when they were committed and when they cooperated with them. Its a flimsy defence perhaps but a major stumbling block to the nation of Hungary itself being considered as evil as their puppet masters.

Romania too is an interesting one. They also experienced a coup, albeit not an explicitly Nazi sponsored one, to installed Ion Antonescu as dictator. Under his rule Romania contributed massively to the Holocaust (at least amongst the small Nazi puppets/allies) and Antonescu even ran his own independent policies for it. The problem then in blaming the nation of Romania as a whole is that these crimes were pinned in Antonescu as a dictator who had seized power (he was executed for war crimes after the war) and not on the nation of Romania as whole.

Long story short, one (Austria) didn't exist as a nation, one (Hungary) actually resisted the worst of Nazi crimes until being couped and turned into a Nazi puppet and one (Romania) had the crimes committed by it during the war blamed on the wartime dictator.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

You’d either need for them to be more effective or to someone cause the collapse of the Soviet Union and prevent the Cold War. Germany was far and away, the most powerful of the Axis Powers and the primary enemy. Japan was very effective, early on in the war... however the quality of their military degraded as the war dragged on due to their resource and industrial weaknesses. The Italians largely mismanaged their war effort and while they committed atrocities, they weren’t really on the same scale as Germany and Japan. The reputations of Japan and Italy would be worse if you can make them more effective and the Italians more brutal in their war effort. Hungary and Romanania were relatively small countries, so they can’t really offer the same menace as the larger Axis Powers. The Ustashe was savage and very few people seem to talk about it. Austria might workif you can get rid of the Austrofascists and have a National Socialist government willingly join Germany, you can probably damage their reputation too.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

I'll be honest, it sounds like you have a serious axe to grind here for some reason that you haven't made us party to, but on Austria, Hungary and Romania, which I know the most about, its because they didn't really do much that could be attributed to the nation as a whole as Germany's crimes could be.

Austria as a nation in fact did nothing because it ceased to exist as a nation after being annexed by the Germans in 1938. I would therefore argue that you can't punish the new post war Republic of Austria anymore than you can punish Vichy France. You can punish Austrian war criminals, as indeed was done, or if you're feeling particularly vindicative, the Austrian people in some fashion but the point remains that Austria did not exist as a nation during WW2 and the worst crimes of the Nazis. The fact that they voted to join Germany in 1938 (against the best efforts of the Austrian government incidentally and in a referendum carried out under Nazi supervision) does really make them culpable for the subsequent crimes against humanity of the state that they were annexed by.

As for Hungary, Horthy was famously opposed to Hitler and his policies, he was using Hitler as a means to an end to try and regain 'rightful Hungarian territory'. That in itself should be condemned, but doesn't make them as evil as the Nazis. Now, Hungary did eventually cooperate somewhat with the Holocaust but this was only after Operation Panzerfaust against Horthy and when the Arrow Cross Party was installed as a Nazi puppet government. Thus you have a similar situation to Austria. Hungary can't be blamed for the worst crimes because they were a Nazi puppet when they were committed and when they cooperated with them. Its a flimsy defence perhaps but a major stumbling block to the nation of Hungary itself being considered as evil as their puppet masters.

Romania too is an interesting one. They also experienced a coup, albeit not an explicitly Nazi sponsored one, to installed Ion Antonescu as dictator. Under his rule Romania contributed massively to the Holocaust (at least amongst the small Nazi puppets/allies) and Antonescu even ran his own independent policies for it. The problem then in blaming the nation of Romania as a whole is that these crimes were pinned in Antonescu as a dictator who had seized power (he was executed for war crimes after the war) and not on the nation of Romania as whole.

Long story short, one (Austria) didn't exist as a nation, one (Hungary) actually resisted the worst of Nazi crimes until being couped and turned into a Nazi puppet and one (Romania) had the crimes committed by it during the war blamed on the wartime dictator.

[/QUOTE]You can punish Austrian war criminals, as indeed was done, or if you're feeling particularly vindicative, the Austrian people in some fashion but the point remains that Austria did not exist as a nation during WW2 and the worst crimes of the Nazis.[/QUOTE]

Yes that’s what I meant. Austrian people should accept their ancestors was part of the problem.

[/QUOTE]The problem then in blaming the nation of Romania as a whole is that these crimes were pinned in Antonescu as a dictator who had seized power (he was executed for war crimes after the war) and not on the nation of Romania as whole.[/QUOTE]

So Germany did nothing wrong and it was all Hitler? The German people had NO part in this terrible war? The Wehrmacht did nothing wrong with it’s soldiers being plain good hearted men?

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

Yes that’s what I meant. Austrian people should accept their ancestors was part of the problem.

So Germany did nothing wrong and it was all Hitler? The German people had NO part in this terrible war? The Wehrmacht did nothing wrong with it’s soldiers being plain good hearted men?

I mean, perhaps they should but would you? Do the French, many of who's ancestors collaborated, or the Polish, who's ancestors not only collaborated but were guards at concentration camps, or for that matter the Norwegians, who's wartime Nazi puppet was so infamous he became the byword for all collaborationist leaders (Quisling)? Or to put it another way, I think this is a justifiable position but it seems to weird to target at it Austria specifically like this.

That wasn't what I meant and you know it. You seem to be extrapolating a fair amount and somewhat unnecessarily here. The contrast between Hitler and Antonescu is obvious, Hitler was elected and had well documented support among the German people, hence they share complicity in the crimes of him and his party, Antonescu meanwhile took control in a coup and, like most dictators who take power in such a way, can therefore be easily made the scapegoat as the evil guy who took over. I must admit that I don't know enough about wartime Romania to know if he was widely supported or just propped up by Nazis guns but it is a similar case, in terms of assigning blame and guilt, to almost all such dictators, like Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein for example, in that it is the dictator who is blamed for the crimes. That doesn't mean its necessarily right, but it tends to be how this sort of thing ends up happening.

 

[Tibi088]

The Wehrmacht commited its share of war crimes (as did the allies by the way). That said were all german people guilty of this? Hitler has won the last free election with a bit more than 33% of the vote. Even if his support increased later should a whole people be punished? OTL after the war the principle of collective guilt was accepted and used against germans. That ment that if you were german you were guilty. Even if you were opressed by the nazi regime because of your religion, sexual orientation or some of your other beliefs. It ment that children who were far too young to even understand what has happened were declared guilty. How many innocents do you want to condemn so those really guilty will suffer for sure?

Doing evil - even if its in reaction to another huge evil - is not a good answer.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

You need to get rid of the Cold War for this to have a chance of happening.

Hungary and Romania were "occupied by the Soviets" - they were "punished" in that manner for many in the West.

Italy and Japan were seen as keen allies in the anti-Communist block (Japan was straight up occupied and "cleansed" by the Americans post-War) so their crimes were overlooked owing to the "greater need" of holding the Communists out. Much like the "clean Wehrmacht" myth was allowed to propagate in the '40s and '50s.

Austria, well Austria was a special case and probably Cold War Politics was to blame for that as well.

 

[nbcman]

I’m angry that Austria managed to pull off such a myth, and it’s a good thing it’s now dying down now. Doesn’t Austria pay reparations for World War 2?

The Austrians did pay reparations (primarily Soviet looting) and the Allies occupation costs although the US returned their portion of occupation costs paid by the Austrians.

Total war reparations taken by the Soviet Union including withdrawn USIA profits, looted property and the final settlement agreed in 1955, are estimated between $1.54 billion and $2.65 billion

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

The Austrians did pay reparations (primarily Soviet looting) and the Allies occupation costs although the US returned their portion of occupation costs paid by the Austrians.

I see, thanks for the info

 

[JanWellem]

In the case of Japan, have the Nationalists win the Chinese Civil War, which means no PRC and thus either no Korean War at all or a Korean War where China supports the UN forces and ends with Korea unified under Syngman Rhee, thus the (entirely justified) allegations against Japan from China and northern Korea cannot be so easily swept under the rug after the war as communist propaganda.

 

[CV12Hornet]

If you think Japan doesn't get as bad a rap as Nazi Germany you're not paying attention to East Asian politics. Everyone there takes every opportunity to bring up Japan's WW2 atrocities to squeeze concessions out of them, in large part because they haven't "paid their debt", so to speak, like Germany did. And, of course, conversely, many people in East Asia don't hold the same level of gut hatred for Nazi Germany we Westerners do.

That said, in addition to what's been said above I think part of the reason Japan gets off lighter in the Western mind compared to Nazi Germany is that Japan's methods of atrocity are... I don't want to say "classic", but that's the best descriptor. Japan's behavior would not have been unusual in Genghis Khan's time, or during the 30 Years' War. The Nazi concentration/death camps were organized, industrial murder on a scale never seen before. That tends to stick in people's minds.