Luftwaffe gets a 4th generation fighter in late 1970s

[Monk78]

What can be the circumstances that can lead to LW adopting a 4th gen fighter to replace F4F while still retaining the tornado for the strike role ?

 

[Fred the Great]

What can be the circumstances that can lead to LW adopting a 4th gen fighter to replace F4F while still retaining the tornado for the strike role ?

American pressure / support to acquire the F-15 to improve NATO capabilities?

Higher accident rates with regard to the F-4?

Greater fears of war ... Soviets field more modern aircraft earlier ...

Combination of things but I think the F-15 makes most sense.

 

[Monk78]

American pressure / support to acquire the F-15 to improve NATO capabilities?

Higher accident rates with regard to the F-4?

Greater fears of war ... Soviets field more modern aircraft earlier ...

Combination of things but I think the F-15 makes most sense.

even F18 by early 80s is not too bad
but better than the F4F
but i agree Eagle makes the most sense

 

[CV12Hornet]

The problem with doing this in the late 1970s is that it's way too early to replace the F-4F fleet - the Germans only got the first planes in 1973, after all, and deliveries finished in 1976. With the Tornado about to come online to replace the F-104G, the main replacement the Luftwaffe needed in the late 1970s was a replacement for their stock of Fiat G.91 attack aircraft, and they ended up being replaced by a mix of additional Tornadoes and Alphajet armed trainers. There really isn't room in the Luftwaffe's ORBAT for a 4th-gen fighter aircraft in the late 1970s.

If you mean instead of the F-4F, well, given the cost pressures on the Luftwaffe, it's the F-16A or bust. The F-15A and F-14A are too expensive for an air force that slimmed down the Phantom in large part as a cost-saving measures, and the Mirage 2000 and Hornet enter service too late to make sense taking the place of the F-4F.

 

[Monk78]

The problem with doing this in the late 1970s is that it's way too early to replace the F-4F fleet - the Germans only got the first planes in 1973, after all, and deliveries finished in 1976. With the Tornado about to come online to replace the F-104G, the main replacement the Luftwaffe needed in the late 1970s was a replacement for their stock of Fiat G.91 attack aircraft, and they ended up being replaced by a mix of additional Tornadoes and Alphajet armed trainers. There really isn't room in the Luftwaffe's ORBAT for a 4th-gen fighter aircraft in the late 1970s.

If you mean instead of the F-4F, well, given the cost pressures on the Luftwaffe, it's the F-16A or bust. The F-15A and F-14A are too expensive for an air force that slimmed down the Phantom in large part as a cost-saving measures, and the Mirage 2000 and Hornet enter service too late to make sense taking the place of the F-4F.

maybe JA37 Viggen ? even though its technically not 4th gen but probably a better interceptor than the BVR less F4F
A model of falcons are more for air to ground roles anyway

 

[CV12Hornet]

maybe JA37 Viggen ? even though its technically not 4th gen but probably a better interceptor than the BVR less F4F
A model of falcons are more for air to ground roles anyway

The Germans very deliberately ditched BVR capability from their Phantoms as a cost-saving measure. They didn't want it. And while the Viggen has its merits with its STOL performance the US government footed a significant part of the bill for the F-4F fleet and they aren't going to do that for a Viggen buy.

The F-16A very much had fighter duties as a large part of its repertoire, both tactical interception and local CAP. Besides, the Luftwaffe didn't solely use its F-4Fs for air-to-air, half the fleet were dedicated mud-movers.

 

[Monk78]

The Germans very deliberately ditched BVR capability from their Phantoms as a cost-saving measure.

The F-16A very much had fighter duties as a large part of its repertoire, both tactical interception and local CAP.

In your opinion was that wise move on LW part?

If it had fighter duties planned in Europe why was it not given AIM7 ? Was it not considered necessary?

 

[CV12Hornet]

In your opinion was that wise move on LW part?

Not really, no. Welcome to the world of German procurement decisions.

If it had fighter duties planned in Europe why was it not given AIM7 ? Was it not considered necessary?

The F-16 was, from its very first origins in the ADF program of the mid-60s, envisioned as a day fighter with no BVR capability that could be acquired at very low cost. A latter-day F-104 or F-86, in essence. That only started to change with the development of the plane from the YF-16 to the F-16A; the APG-66 it ended up with was a far more capable radar than was originally envisioned in order to facilitate its strike capabilities, and it was at that point that the lack of Sparrow capability began getting grumblings, grumbling that only intensified once the F/A-18 was rolled out with Sparrow capability built in from the start.

In the end, it took until 1986 to get the F-16 BVR capability, with the Block 30 and ADF Block 15s for the Air National Guard.

 

[AdA]

The easiest option is to skip the F-4, and to delay the process until the F-15 is on the market for export.
This will leave the LW in a weaker position for a few years in the 70s but in a much stronger position in the 80s

 

[Alanith]

If cost's an issue, get the USA to provide subsidies to the Luftwaffe for operating the F-15 as part of NATO.

 

[Fred the Great]

Or maybe move the F-4s into predominantly air to ground and buy the F-15 to fill a perceived air superiority shortfall.

NATO forces on the continent were a bit short of modern air superiority fighters through the ‘80s. Basically, the West Germans had four squadrons of F-4s in the role, the RAF two squadrons with the type, and the USAF only four squadrons with the F-15 - though the latter squadrons are, of course, bigger.

 

[Riain]

Israel got F15As in 1977, so presumably Germany could start getting them at the same time. But the Germans likely needed a fighter when or before they got the F4F, so likely a better option would be to get the F4 earlier than a 4th gen fighter 4 or 5 years later.

As for BVR, in 1973 the sparrow was a heap of shit, maybe getting 1 kill in 4 launches so it less of a loss than might be thought at first glance.

 

[CV12Hornet]

The easiest option is to skip the F-4, and to delay the process until the F-15 is on the market for export.
This will leave the LW in a weaker position for a few years in the 70s but in a much stronger position in the 80s

This has been discussed before, and those few years of the Luftwaffe being in a weaker position in the 70s are unacceptable. This is right during the low ebb of US military power during the Cold War, particularly in the Army, and there were very serious worries that if WWIII broke out the US would refuse to fight conventionally. As such, decent fighter now is better than a world-beater in a few years.

The only reason I raise the F-16 instead of the F-4F is that it's available sooner than the F-15 and better fits German desires/needs.

 

[Bougnas]

The F-4F was a consequence of the MRCA (Tornado) being significantly delayed beyond the planned service date of 1975 and not being able to replace the F-104 as a fighter, prompting the need for a stopgap, accompanied by a budget surplus at the time. In 1971 McDD proposed the F-4E(F) which was a new iteration of the stripped-down single-seat Phantom proposed in 1960 for the export fighter program won by the Northrop F-5. Germany was interested but changed that to a stripped-down two-seater, most likely to avoid supporting an excessively unique variant on its own.

The timing of the program meant that waiting for a F-15 or F-16 was not viable and they weren't even ready yet when the choice was made. Deleting the Sparrow made sense in the context of purchasing a super cheap aircraft.

So unless the US is literally paying Germany to sell its planes or the country is really comitted to he stopgap concept, the only option to get a 4th gen aircraft by the early 80s at the latest is to drastically alter the MRCA program. If you limit yourself to the late 80s however it MIGHT be possible to squeeze the TFK-90 if Eurofighter never happens.

 

[bsmart]

If cost's an issue, get the USA to provide subsidies to the Luftwaffe for operating the F-15 as part of NATO.

In that time frame the U.S. was cutting its own defense budgets. They weren't going to fund more purchases for Germany which had a good economy and was paying a lower percentage of budget for defense (if I remember correctly, it has been years since I saw all the numbers)

I believe German companies were in the F-16 European Production Consortium so it would make sense.