Lost Kings

[Archduke]

So recently I learned about the rumors that Edward II was not killed at Berkeley Castle and instead escaped or was released and went on to live a quiet life. The evidence around this is in my opinion enough to make the theory plausible. By no means however does it make the theory true or even the most likely scenario.

I’m curious about other stories like this of kings or people of great historical significance who were supposedly killed but there are theories and evidence that imply the possibility of them living. This seems like an interesting area for alternate history exploration. So anyone have any names and stories?

Another example: John Parricida

John Parricida - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Peppe]

The Pugashev Rebellion's leader claimed that he was Peter III who survived being assassinated by his wife and nobles (and there were also the various False Dimitrys).

Radama II of Madagascar is similar to Ed II. He was strangled on his bed when his ministers enacted a coup, but even wikipedia places a "contested" on his death and burial dates and places, with it even saying that a strong case has been made that he revived following a botched strangulation and whiskered off to live in anonimity on northwestern Madagascar

 

[alexmilman]

So recently I learned about the rumors that Edward II was not killed at Berkeley Castle and instead escaped or was released and went on to live a quiet life. The evidence around this is in my opinion enough to make the theory plausible. By no means however does it make the theory true or even the most likely scenario.

I’m curious about other stories like this of kings or people of great historical significance who were supposedly killed but there are theories and evidence that imply the possibility of them living. This seems like an interesting area for alternate history exploration. So anyone have any names and stories?

Another example: John Parricida

John Parricida - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Movie “Passport to Pimlico” is based upon a premise that Charles the Bold survived, fled to England and was granted a territory of the modern Pimlico as his sovereign domain. “We are true Brits, this is why we demand to be recognized as the Burgundians!” (or something like that).

 

[Tyler96]

People have their pet theories about the Princes in the Tower. Perkin Warbeck being genuine, Richard Plantagenet of Eastwell etc.

There's the whole Bardiya/Smerdis/Gaumata... thing. I don't know much about the Achaemenids.

The Pugashev Rebellion's leader claimed that he was Peter III who survived being assassinated by his wife and nobles (and there were also the various False Dimitrys).

Believe there's also rumours that Alexander I retired to become a hermit, rather than dying?

 

[GameBawesome]

Kinda of what your looking for, but not really.

There’s Sebastian of Portugal. He tried to lead a crusade into Morocco, but was supposedly killed in battle. With his death, King Philip II of Spain was later able to form the Iberian Union.

Although Philip II claimed to have brought his body back, Sebastian’s body couldn’t be identified, which lead to him becoming a Messianic Figure to the Portuguese people, and a legend that he would return in Portugal’s time of need.

 

[RedSword12]

By no means however does it make the theory true or even the most likely scenario.

I'd recommend the book Medieval Intrigue: Decoding Royal Conspiracies by Ian Mortimer on the subject of Edward's survival. He makes a pretty extensive case for it. Although it is a book written for scholars, so it is a difficult read. Of note is that "Berkeley and Maltravers were never punished for their failure to keep Edward III safely, and why both remained peers and held on to their titles, and why Berkeley's estates were not confiscated and Maltravers's were fully restored to him, albeit after a long sojourn overseas which seems to have been at least partly voluntary. It would explain why Edward came to trust Maltravers so completely with his overseas business, despite his widespread reputation as Edward II's murderer" (Mortimer 89).

 

[SunKing105]

There's the whole Bardiya/Smerdis/Gaumata... thing. I don't know much about the Achaemenids.

It's entirely possible the whole story was an elaborate forgery concoted by Darius who was attempting to legitimize his rule, and that the Bardiya Darius and his allies killed was the actual real brother of Cambyses and son of Cyrus the Great.

 

[perdu42]

I’m curious about other stories like this of kings or people of great historical significance who were supposedly killed but there are theories and evidence that imply the possibility of them living. This seems like an interesting area for alternate history exploration. So anyone have any names and stories?

I’m not sure evidence exists but theories abound. Most of the theories – following the (very) loose exemplar of King Arthur – verge on myth. Some examples: Charlemagne, Olaf Tryggvason, Harold Godwinson, Frederick Barbarossa, Richard II of England.

Harold Godwinson (which I’m the most familiar with) did not die at Hastings but survived. After being hidden in a cellar at Winchester for two years, where he is nursed back to health by an Arab woman, he travels to the continent seeking support – from the Danes, the (Saxon) Germans – to overthrow the Normans. No support forthcoming, Harold has a spiritual awakening and eventually becomes a hermit in the Welsh borderlands.

 

[Deleted member 160141]

I’m not sure evidence exists but theories abound. Most of the theories – following the (very) loose exemplar of King Arthur – verge on myth. Some examples: Charlemagne, Olaf Tryggvason, Harold Godwinson, Frederick Barbarossa, Richard II of England.

Harold Godwinson (which I’m the most familiar with) did not die at Hastings but survived. After being hidden in a cellar at Winchester for two years, where he is nursed back to health by an Arab woman, he travels to the continent seeking support – from the Danes, the (Saxon) Germans – to overthrow the Normans. No support forthcoming, Harold has a spiritual awakening and eventually becomes a hermit in the Welsh borderlands.

Arab woman? In Winchester?

Either way, all pure conjecture and all reaching pretty far to avoid the unglamorous likelihood.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Vladislaus III, aka Władysław of Varna, King of Poland and Hungary: there were rumours, that he survived Battle of Varna (his body was not found on battlefield, although his head was cut off and send to Edirne in jar of honey, but King's younger brother Casimir denied, that it was his head-Władysław had long black hair, head in the jar had blonde hair). Thus legend appeared, that King survived, left Balkans disguised as monk and repented for breaking peace with Ottomans. Legend existed on Portuguese island of Madeira, that Vladislaus eventually settled there under name Henrique Alemao and married local woman (one version of the legend even makes him father of Christopher Columbus).

 

[Atterdag]

Olaf II of Denmark died as a teenager, but many years after a fake Olaf emerged, claiming that his mother had tried to kill him but he had survived. The real Olaf’s mother was anything but trilled about this and so had the fake Olaf captured and burned at the stake. Not a very likely theory though.

 

[Atterdag]

Arab woman? In Winchester?

Not that implausible in the 11th century, when they dominated most of Spain.

 

[Aghasverov]

People have their pet theories about the Princes in the Tower. Perkin Warbeck being genuine, Richard Plantagenet of Eastwell etc.

There's the whole Bardiya/Smerdis/Gaumata... thing. I don't know much about the Achaemenids.


Believe there's also rumours that Alexander I retired to become a hermit, rather than dying?

The most popular rumour about Alex I was that he lived out the rest of his days as this man:

Feodor Kuzmich - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Apparently even some members of the Imperial Family were open to the idea in later years...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Heard of William Featherstone? No? Don't worry, wikipedia and google ain't either, type in William Featherstone and you get a Canadian hymnwriter. Featherstone, alias Constable, was a young man who popped up in England in May 1555 claiming to be, wait for it, Edward VI. They arrested him, interrogated him and then drove him through London to have his ears cropped. Didn't stop him, since his "followers" continued to distribute hand bills that claimed Edward was waiting in France for a demonstration that would show support against the "usurper and papist whore, Mary, called queen of England". Next time Featherstone was arrested in January 1556, he was tried at London's Guildhall and obviously found guilty, sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered, then beheaded on March 13 1556.

The Venetian ambassador (Michiel) writes to the doge that Featherstone was "consigned to silence" for Mary's reign, so cover up in the modern sense.

And we hear no more rumours of royal imposters/pretenders for the next twenty years when Robert Blosse aka Robert Mantell/Mantle crops up before the Recorder of London in 1572 claiming to be Edward VI (oh, and, in case you missed it, Elizabeth - according to Bob - was also the mother of not one but four kids by another Bob, Dudley, by name ) and that he'd been living in Catholic Flanders since 1556. No mention of where he was between 1553 and 1556. Liz and Burghley sent him to Colchester Gaol for a year, but he escaped but was finally recaptured in 1581 and executed. Rumours of Edward VI's survival carried on until 1588.

Anne Burnell was another. She came forward in 1587 claiming to be the "daughter" of Felipe II and Queen Mary who had faked her pregnancy ending in a miscarriage/stillbirth to "protect" the child from Elizabeth.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Oh, and did I mention the other theory that Richard III didn't actually murder the princes in the tower, that the younger of them took a medical degree at Louvain (although didn't take the oath) and both he and his brother lived on quietly in England until Henry VIII's reign. And that St. Thomas More was aware of their existence, which was why Henry had More beheaded?

https://mattlewisauthor.wordpress.com/2014/07/26/leslau-holbein-more-and-clement/

It's very long and admittedly, in places you're like "okay, now you're going too far" but if you think about it, people (at least ones I went to school with) believed the Da Vinci Code as factual. Leslau's theory makes more sense than Dan Brown's.

 

[RedKing]

Oh, and did I mention the other theory that Richard III didn't actually murder the princes in the tower, that the younger of them took a medical degree at Louvain (although didn't take the oath) and both he and his brother lived on quietly in England until Henry VIII's reign. And that St. Thomas More was aware of their existence, which was why Henry had More beheaded?

To be fair that sounds like a cool concept for an alternate history novel, just add a plot to overthrow Henry VIII that fails and that is a pretty interesting book

 

[HortenseMancini]

I’m not sure evidence exists but theories abound. Most of the theories – following the (very) loose exemplar of King Arthur – verge on myth. Some examples: Charlemagne, Olaf Tryggvason, Harold Godwinson, Frederick Barbarossa, Richard II of England.

King in the Mountain, yeah?

Believe there's also rumours that Alexander I retired to become a hermit, rather than dying?

Apparently even some members of the Imperial Family were open to the idea in later years...

The most popular rumour about Alex I was that he lived out the rest of his days as this man:

Feodor Kuzmich - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

TBH that seems at least somewhat plausible.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

To be fair that sounds like a cool concept for an alternate history novel, just add a plot to overthrow Henry VIII that fails and that is a pretty interesting book

In one of the stories I've scribbled the lead character's favourite flick is a film called "The Student Prince" based on this premise

 

[Aghasverov]

King in the Mountain, yeah?



TBH that seems at least somewhat plausible.

I think spending the rest of his years as a poor wandering starets would've had a certain appeal to Alexander

 

[The Professor]

Olaf II of Denmark died as a teenager, but many years after a fake Olaf emerged, claiming that his mother had tried to kill him but he had survived. The real Olaf’s mother was anything but trilled about this and so had the fake Olaf captured and burned at the stake. Not a very likely theory though.

She succeeded the second time 😋