Looking for a way to improve Naval Aviation prewar in the 1930's.

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Hey everybody, I'm looking at trying my hand at a few, brief atl, where, among other things, the US gets it's shit together with respect to combat readiness and inter-service cooperation. I'm also of a mind to improve naval aviation by circumventing the naval treaties, and stuff like that.

I don't want to end up writing an Ameriwank, but my goal going into to this is to get a better starting forces readiness over otl for the USA.

One thing I want to have as a common POD, is having Howard Hughes altered into someone that has interest in naval aviation, as well as float planes, seaplanes, and amphibious planes.

There was a thread recently that asked about something I had not previously heard of, something called a Flying Deck Cruiser and that inspired me to start thinking about alternatives to that.

So, in this first thread, I'm going to try to identify problems with the FDC, and get around those, and get us to a place where we can get better Naval Aviation training prewar.

So, a few of the common problems with any type of earlier/additional carriers, is that all of them are warships, and thus would count against the tonnage allotments allowed by treaty, and that they would cost money to build, maintain, upgrade/refit/rebuild and operate, all of which has to come out of the navies budget.

My proposed solution is to take a rich & famous American, Howard Hughes, and have him get an earlier start of the Hughes Aircraft Company of OTL, and marry that with my fictional Hughes Shipping Company & Hughes Shipbuilding Company, that builds really big, impressive merchantmen...

Before I get started on that, though, I need help finding a shipyard in the 1900-1925 time-frame, that might be suitable for purchase and construction of what I am looking for. What I am looking for is an 'ego class' project, one like "To build the largest Merchant ships in the World" type thing, as both Sr and Jr wanted to be the best at what they did.

From the Wiki, for the Liberty Ships, I have these specifications:

Class and type: Liberty ship class cargo ship
Displacement: 14,245 long tons (14,474 t)[2]
Length: 441 ft 6 in (134.57 m)
Beam: 56 ft 10.75 in (17.3 m)
Draft: 27 ft 9.25 in (8.5 m)
Propulsion:

• Two oil-fired boilers
• triple-expansion steam engine
• single screw, 2,500 hp (1,900 kW)

Speed: 11–11.5 knots (20.4–21.3 km/h; 12.7–13.2 mph)
Range: 20,000 nmi (37,000 km; 23,000 mi)
Capacity: 10,856 t (10,685 long tons) deadweight(DWT)[2]
Complement:

• 38–62 USMM
• 21–40 USNAG[3]

Armament: Stern-mounted 4-in (102 mm) deck gun for use against surfaced submarines, variety of anti-aircraft guns

Since I have no knowledge about shipbuilding, I'm going to extrapolate from here...

Class and type: Hughes Titan class cargo ship
Displacement: 20,000 long tons
Length: 650 ft
Beam: 100 ft
Draft: 30-35 ft
Propulsion:

• Six oil-fired boilers
• Two triple-expansion steam engine
• Twin screw, 5,000 hp

Speed: 11–11.5 knots
Range: 20,000 nmi
Capacity: 20,000 t deadweight

So the values in red I need folks to discuss and post for themselves, the only dimension I really, really want to keep in the 100 ft beam, as this will allow for follow on classes to look very similar in scale.

We are naturally going into the whole 'converted merchantmen into cheap, barely survivable carrier trope', but here I am going to create a reason for such a historically huge merchant ship to come into existence, and be in ongoing production, in the early 1930's, as an ego boost for Jr.

So, tell me what you think, and please offer advice on any dimensions for the "Hughes Titan class cargo ship" For instance, as the ship is larger and wider than a liberty ship, I gave 4 more boilers, and and extra engine to these monsters, is that enough to maintain speed? I also took a stab at the increase in cargo capacity and displacement, are those numbers anywhere close to what they should be?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Ok, so some really good input and information, thanks folks!

I'm now trying to organize my thoughts for what to research and in what order, and right now I'm looking at the following areas to focus on getting up to speed on, so to speak.

1. Naval Auxiliary Ships. Seems that there are many types out there, and some renaming going on as well, so this is definitely an area that I am going to have to brush up on. Getting a good grasp of the different types, and when they first appeared historically is probably a good idea, so that when I want Jr to do things that will require his personal expeditions to be able to do things not normally done, I can have him develop something like this tailored for his own uses, and thus paving the way for the proof of concept to have already been worked out and in civilian use, long before 2nd LNT expires.
2. Offshore platforms & Oil Industry. Someone mentioned getting Jr into the oil industry, and building tankers specifically. This seems to me to be a wonderful opportunity to marry his families historical involvement in producing drill bits for the oil industry, and my own needs for him getting a shipyard. That being said, shipyards don't just produce ships, but can also produce barges, rafts, and offshore drilling rigs/platforms. So I plan to read up quite a bit on offshore platforms and such, and try to justify getting this kind of thing introduced in the interwar years, rather than something that mainly took off post WWII. So Jr needs Yachts for his record setting agenda, and he needs to build ships for commerce, that can also serve other needs. Production of offshore platforms means there is a need to build ships that can be used to tow these platforms into position on site, and it also means that ships will have to service these platforms for supply, maintenance needs, and shift change/crew swapping. Having Jr getting into production of oil tankers seems to be an easy proposition, and just how hard will it be to have him be building Oilers if he is already building tankers, and operating on offshore oil platform or three? Someone up thread asked about having HH purchasing a shipyard in the UK. Right off the top of my head, I couldn't think of a thing that would make that make sense, if he already has a shipyard that is oversized and underutilized. But then I thought, what if were talking about something that needs to be built locally, as you don't want to have to tow an offshore platform across the Atlantic if you don't have too. When I gave a quick look, it seems that the North Sea is a very target rich environment for offshore platforms today, so having a division of Hughes shipbuilding based within the UK might make sense, provided that offshore oil can be developed in the 1920's-1930's time frame. If I can get away with that, other interesting locations might be Southern France, and SE Australia, while back in the USA, the Golf and Pacific coasts might just benefit from the addition of a Hughes Hog Islander" scale shipyards being constructed there, as well. But for these last thoughts, there would have to be justification for a massive offshore exploration and exploitation program.
3. Seaplanes & Seaplane Tenders. Jr is already an aviation enthusiast historically, but I want to expand his land based aviation efforts to include, over the interwar years, all types of aircraft that can land on/take off of water, so that he can become a leader in the field as far as innovation and developing new aircraft and interactions between ships and planes (and offshore platforms). Seaplanes in this context will include Flying boats, Float planes, as well as Amphibious aircraft. Because of my plans to have him pushing oil exploration and world record setting attempts, I think that this should easily allow for getting him interested in have a tender for his seaplanes, and this makes a crane aboard ship an obvious in to ships having cranes of their own, and then needing to have a 'deck' to lift the seaplane up onto for servicing might be a logical next step. From there, getting a catapult aboard seems like another logical small step to take. Proceeding along these lines, how hard will it be to have a larger 'aircraft deck', fitted as either a permanent feature, or something that can be rigged and taken down, as needed, to provide for more than one aircraft to be carried aboard? Keep in mind here, we are still talking about strictly seaplanes, that land in the water, and are craned aboard, taken to the aircraft deck, serviced, and either catapulted off or lowered back into the water. The next steps would be to have a much more robust 'landing on' deck constructed, as either a permanent part of the ship, or possibly a lesser capability deck, that could be rigged/removed at need? A permanent deck would probably be able to handle much more in the way of heavy/fast aircraft, but that has design consequences that will make for the need for either an off center smokestack/superstructure, or a short landing on deck of limited capability. Again, this won't be for operations of any large amounts of aircraft, and mainly some forms of seaplane, but will allow for the introduction of multi-plane capacity on a single ship. Keeping in mind the need to keep these Yacht's basically a merchantman with special features/capabilities, I'm in favor of the initial efforts being of the rigged/removable type, at least at first, and then perhaps going to a ship with a permanent, and heavy duty capable landing on deck, with a round about track system capable of moving the plane from the stern, around the superstructure, to the forward catapult. This should take place right around the time that the early naval aircraft carriers did the same things, and before they start getting complete flight decks. After this, if we can have the landing on deck, connected to a forward rigged/removable flying off/catapult off deck, then we are basically there! I think that several Yacht's are going to be needed, and that each one should be more capable than the ones before it. Merchantmen are faster/easier to construct than warships I believe, and if I can have Jr building a new Yacht every year as a standing order kind of thing, then progress could be very rapid, and develop far faster than naval aviation advancements would, because he it trying out new things, and doesn't have any other requirements hanging over his head. That being said, unless we can justify large merchant ships having and using rigged/removed aircraft decks, I just don't see a flush deck ship being built at all. That said, I'm open to suggestions on what might make having an elevated, open area a good commercial opportunity. Obviously, an aircraft ferry is one option, but unless you are needing to fly them off, why would they not be better shipped in crates?
4. Merchantmen and Marine Propulsion. This is an area that I have no real knowledge of, and so will have to take at least a nice little look into. Offhand, there are probably several different types of fuels and engines that I will have to know about. Coal vs Oil, Diesel vs Turbines vs other forms.

Well, these are the thoughts I'm having right now for what I need to learn about, before I start the adventures of HH.

Any ideas, opinions or comments? Any requests for things to have HH do?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Ok, so the research is taking quite a bit of time, and I keep getting distracted by RL and other excellent threads here. One of these threads, about the Falkland island war back in 1982, got me to thinking. I'm probably going off wrong footed by attempting to read up several huge R&D topics, before getting anything done thread writing wise, and so I though to myself, how can I start writing threads, when I don't really have the 'know how' about the way things were back in the 1920's - 1940's, and what struck me was that perhaps I should pick a more modern starting point, and then work backwards to my goal.

Now, my main goal is to arrive at a point where I can write threads that allow for implementation of a series of small and hopefully logical changes in how things were done, with respect to my protagonist, HH Jr, doing all sorts of foolish and risky things starting back in the early 20's, with the stated intent of getting US armed forces better prepared in the interwar years, and to do this by introducing several things that historically were not developed for years or even decades later in OTL Within this goal, I'm very much interested especially in getting ground breaking advancements made to facilitate and advance Naval Aviation in particular. Although Naval Aviation includes carrier based aircraft operations and capabilities, for me it also includes the land based aircraft that can/will be operating in the skies over the coastlines/offshore from the mainland, as well as those flying above the worlds oceans, regardless of who own/operates said aircraft. Right now, I've been reading up a great deal on some merchant ships, naval auxiliaries, and the whole offshore platforms history, which is why it is taking me so long. I want to get some better information/understandings on current and recently past classes of Naval Auxiliaries, with the idea that if I can get discussions going that involve ships of these types, I can then start getting a better grasp on things so I don't make to many huge and obvious blunders later on when I get around to writing my various ATL's.

My mechanism for introducing these new technologies is based upon HH's personal yacht's needing to be able to handle/service/accommodate seaplanes that he uses to set world records, and shoot films from the ships and aircraft for promotional purposes, when he creates new yearly challenges, open to all comers. I'm thinking that the best way to force rapid development in his yachts is too build a new one for each year, as a standing order from his shipyard (formerly the Hog Island shipyard), with the stipulation that each new vessel must have improvements over last years yacht, and that these vessels must be derived from his merchant ships designs currently building.

With this in mind, I pose the following for everyone to consider, comment on, and enlighten & educate me about.

Here is a Falkland war thread to discuss the USA getting rid of the 7 ships of the USS Iwo Jima class, in mid 1980 by offering them for scrapping by the UK, and what what might this do for said war? The UK building such ships would be known, and would likely to cause the war to be still born, but what might have happened if, instead of/prior too scrapping all 7 ships, they began scrapping some, while others are put into service for training purposes while destined ultimately for the scrap heap down the road?

Here in this thread, can anyone tell me anything about this type of vessel?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Ok, so I'm still in the idea formulation stages, and along these lines I'm starting to look into potential military uses for either pre-existing civil off shore platforms, or modifications to same. In context, what this means is, I am going to be having HH building yearly Yacht's, and these ships are going to be for-profit capable merchant ships first and foremost, and any and all other capabilities will be in the form of engineering add on's and cobbled together one-off installations, that give such ships capabilities well beyond other merchantmen, will special emphasis on aviation and ship to shore, and ship to platform capabilities.

Since HH is already involved with the Oil industry historically, and I'm going to be taking him out of historical activities and into maritime activities, in order to get the improvements in Naval Aviation I'm looking for, it seems that one aspect that might give me a way forward would be to create a need for a civilian offshore platforms market & production niche. Anything I want to bring into existence initially, and within the time constraints of say 1920-1940, will have to either;

1. Be an extremely low cost, limited production number type of thing, or else it has to be...
2. A profit making thing in it's own right.

HH is filthy rich in OTL, and did invest in projects that were not at the time profitable right off the bat, so there is some historical precedent for having him investing in things that historically don't have to make any initial, instant profits, but there is a limit even here. In OTL, the offshore platforms didn't really take off until after WWII was over and done with, and the idea I am currently playing around with is to have production of some offshore platforms starting up as part of HH aviation record setting activities, and I need ideas for how and when the first needs could be made believable. For me, the off-shore platforms means anything that floats and is unpowered, so small barges would be in this category, all the way up to giant, modern (for the 1920's-1940ish) time period Oil drilling rigs or Oil wells/storage facilities as well as anything and everything in between.

The Great depression comes along to close out the roaring 20's, but interestingly, along about this time was something called the Texas Oil Boom. Being an unapologetic opportunistic grabber of things that may help my story ideas along, it seems that along with the vast increase in the Texas economy and heavy/Oil industries, I might just be able to have HH grab up some bankrupt golf coast shipyard, and have them begin building things for HH's personal toy-chest, and then start to look at finding any possible uses that such things could have, both to (maybe) make money on their own, or at least keep the shipyard building something (anything) until the Great Depression comes to an end.

So how do I tie all the loose ends together? Right now, I'm looking into merchant shipping, and cargo handling of the times (because anything and everything this guy does is going to be based upon making use of merchant shipping and shipbuilding, from his shipyards) but this also means I need to learn up about how a port is going to be handling cargo, so that I can create a way forward for the Hughes Merchantman to be larger and more expensive, but even more profitable than the historical merchantmen in production in OTL. Then I need a rich fellow that is into aviation and world record setting attempts (and this is turn requires that I do a decent job of tying this personality into activities mixing ships and planes and offshore oil exploration, drilling, and production) to be able to get to my desired stories.

Along these lines, this week I have been reading posts over in another thread, and the question of NGS came up in the form of reactivated Iowa class battleships, and then moved onto talk about other possible ships types, from DD's to Monitors, and then I got to thinking how I could use platforms in amphibious operations. Could some form of rapidly deploy-able offshore platform provide a stable base for NGS? As I understand it, naval gunfire support has advantages and disadvantages:

1. One the plus side, NGS is mobile artillery that can be brought into action at any time, irregardless of the extent of advancement of the ground forces inland from the beaches, and indeed is first and foremost all important for the pre-invasion bombardment of offshore obstacles, landmines, and other defensive works of the enemy, before one can deploy sufficient land based artillery and their ammunition to do this without tying up fleet units.
2. On the down side, naval gunfire is subject to the movements of it's various platforms, and the smaller the platform, the more easily they will be moved by wind and waves. Add in bigger guns, on smaller ships/platforms, and you will then have to account for recoil of the guns themselves causing movements, and all these various movements will decrease accuracy as ranges go up, which is of particular concern to the fellows on the beach after all.
3. So, what if there existed, in civilian use and production, a large variety of unpowered barges and various different designs of off shore platforms, say by the very late 1920's to the very early 1930's, such that various military uses might be found, and one of which, by the time war comes around and amphibious invasions might be a thing, there had already been work done on a wide variety of specialized military platforms, for everything from NGS, to forward observers, radio towers and offshore wind generators etc...

My thoughts lately have been about all the civilian uses I can think of, to explain away the a-historical existence of a small but robust shipbuilding (between 1920 and 1933) activity focused on offshore platforms, whereby HH can be setting world records by being the first to land/takeoff from such and such a type of platform, or to develop a collection of platforms that could allow seaplanes to land in a man-made sheltered water field, where enough of a reduction in the action of the winds and the waves could be achieved to allow for establishing a permanently manned/crewed/inhabited offshore platform/community.

Above I posited a military application for a type of offshore platform that would have a high tower, which would incorporate an observation platform high above sea level (say 100-150 feet), which would give a greater field of view than enjoyed by the guys on the beach. Aircraft would have an even better view, but if you place a telephone[1] at the tower top as well as a radio, and run a line to the beach, you have a potential second system of communication, that cannot be overheard by the enemy, nor scrambled by atmospheric conditions, and this is something an aircraft cannot do.

If you are operating in a remote location, and wish to have some local electrical power generation not tied to your generators fuel supply, why not slap a windmill or three on the tower? This isn't going to generate any great amount of electricity, but any radio/telephone is going to have to have juice from some source, and if you already have to have the tower, the electronics, and the batteries anyway, it would seem a big waste of potential NOT to harness at east some small part of this resource.

Could a series of offshore platforms, designed and built for the purpose, have a 'floating fence' strung between them, that could serve to provide assistance for small craft to not get scattered and messed up in various ship-to-shore sorties by wind and waves, if they were to have two lines of such towers strung up on either side of their transit path?

Could HH be used to develop the need for such things, perhaps by having competitions for setting up temporary seaplane bases ashore on an otherwise undeveloped island/coast? If the civilian sector is the driving force for such things, rather than military budgets and bureaucracies, and initially done just for the hell of it, can I pull off things like, mobile radar stations, both shore based and offshore platform based? How about air search and rescue platforms off shore, if they are built to provide a safe place for those that cannot quite make it back to the beach?

Anyone have some ideas or comments along these lines?