Longshanks dies without male issue?

[Chookie]

What are the implications if Longshanks dies without male issue?


OK, what I mean here is that instead of an Edward II, his only living child is named Eleanor, born in 1284. She is married to Magnus, the Crown Prince of Norway, who is also heir to the Kingdom of Scots.


Longshanks dies in a jousting accident in 1290, thus he isn't around to screw with the barons of Scotland when Alexander III falls off his horse in 1292.


Erik II Magnusson dies six years early (in 1293). Thus Magnus VII Ericsson is King of Norway, King of Scots and King of England.


How do matters proceed from there?

 

[Gonzaga]

OK, what I mean here is that instead of an Edward II, his only living child is named Eleanor, born in 1284. She is married to Magnus, the Crown Prince of Norway, who is also heir to the Kingdom of Scots.

Which Magnus VII are you talking about? Magnus VI was dead in 1380, and Magnus VII wouldn't be born until 1316.

 

[Elfwine]

Edward has a brother, Edmund. It might go through him and his descendants.

 

[The Professor]

Edmund would absolutely become King - there is no rule for allowing women to rule yet in England.
Edmund Crouchback, Earl of Lancaster, Earl of Leicester, Lord High Steward, would likely have been recognised as heir while Edward still had no sons.

However the succession was not totally set in stone.
When Eleanor has sons her husband will put in a claim, especially if he is King of Scotland & Norway.
I'm assuming that Magnus here is a male version of Margaret the Maid?
Probably best that Eric II of Norway lives as long as OTL so he can push Magnus to be King of Scotland tho Eric's brother Haakon might be able to usurp the throne of Norway if Magnus spends too much time in Scotland.

What happens with his sons Thomas and Henry?
Thomas is heir to England so will he still marry Alice de Lacey and become one of the wealthiest & powerful men in the realm?
If yes then he won't need to appease an equivalent of the Lords Ordainer (if they exist TTL anyways).

Will Thomas try for an alliance with France as Edward II?
He's still married to Alice tho he may be able to get an early divorce and marry Isabelle, or perhaps she could marry his brother Henry? It might be interesting if a collateral line of England has the claim to France TTL

 

[RPW@Cy]

Does anybody know what sort of man Edmund was, in particular how talented he was as a soldier and administrator? There were a series of crises throughout the 1290's which Edward barely survived (in particular a near civil war over excessive demands for taxation) which a lesser man might not survive.

Also, with Edward out of the way, does the revolt of Madog ap Llywelyn go any different?

 

[Elfwine]

Does anybody know what sort of man Edmund was, in particular how talented he was as a soldier and administrator? There were a series of crises throughout the 1290's which Edward barely survived (in particular a near civil war over excessive demands for taxation) which a lesser man might not survive.

Also, with Edward out of the way, does the revolt of Madog ap Llywelyn go any different?

I don't know very much about him, and it appears most of the stuff at a casual look through the internet references the wikipedia article.

He seems to have been very much in the shadow of his brother, which may just mean that Edward was that attention getting and Edmund wasn't.

But it doesn't sound like he's particularly untalented - just obscure.

Would Edmund face the same (internal) problems as Edward? I tend to doubt he'd be as prone to foreign campaigning, though on the other hand Crouchback apparently refers to crosses, not humps.

Madoc is probably doomed whichever brother is on the throne. England is too powerful.

 

[Razors are for Fish]

Longshanks dies in a jousting accident in 1290, thus he isn't around to screw with the barons of Scotland when Alexander III falls off his horse in 1292.

Alexander III died in 1286. Margaret died in 1290, so depending on what time of the year Edward dies, Margaret could still be Queen.
If she still dies then a Civil War could break out in Scotland. Alexander might have been okay with the Norwegians but the Scottish Nobles would never serve under a Norwegian king.
So the way I see it, King Edmund of England might intervene in the same way Longshanks did in Scotland but if not a Civil War between the Balliol and the Bruce families.

 

[Yorel]

What are the implications if Longshanks dies without male issue?


OK, what I mean here is that instead of an Edward II, his only living child is named Eleanor, born in 1284. She is married to Magnus, the Crown Prince of Norway, who is also heir to the Kingdom of Scots.

Longshanks dies in a jousting accident in 1290, thus he isn't around to screw with the barons of Scotland when Alexander III falls off his horse in 1292.

Erik II Magnusson dies six years early (in 1293). Thus Magnus VII Ericsson is King of Norway, King of Scots and King of England.

How do matters proceed from there?

Hm... Edward II wasn't the only child of Edward I. He was the only son that lived up to adulthood Edward I had with his first wife, Eleanor of Castille. And he later had two sons (Thomas and Edmund) with Margaret of France, but that marriage only happened in 1299 and you have Edward I die in 1290 in your scenario.

If Edward II is born a girl in 1284, then she would come after her five surviving sisters in the succession : Eleanor (born 1269), Joan (born 1272), Margaret (born 1275), Mary (born 1279) and Elizabeth (born 1282). Also, I doubt female Edward II would be named Eleanor (since there's alreay one) but I don't really know how she would be called : maybe Katherine or Berengaria as were named two of Edward I's daughter who didn't live up to adulthood.

Edward I dying without male issue would probably mean the crown would pass to his eldest daughter (Eleanor) who would be 21 in 1290. If the nobles do not want a woman on the throne, the first male candidate is Edward I's brother Edmund Crouchback, who would be 45 and had three sons (Thomas (b.1278), Henry (b.1281) and John (b. ca. 1282)).

A possibility I could see would Edmund Crouchback becoming Edmund I* of England, then having his son Thomas marry one of Edward I's daughter. Probably Eleanor as she is the eldest despite the fact she is nine year older than Thomas (not sure if that age gap would count though).

*Edward I was actually the fourth Edward to rule England. There were three Anglo-Saxons Kings named Edward (including Edward the Confessor) but Edward Longshanks did not count them when he was crowned King of England. Thus, the two Anglo-Saxons King named Edmund would probably not be counted. Domenic pointed that out to me in another thread.

 

[Chookie]

What are the implications if Longshanks dies without male issue?

I discounted Edmund because his contemporaries seemed to.

Magnus is indeed an incarnation of of Margaret of Norway.

But you all *sob sob sob* ignored the 5 words highlighted from my OP.

 

[The Professor]

I discounted Edmund because his contemporaries seemed to.

Magnus is indeed an incarnation of of Margaret of Norway.

But you all *sob sob sob* ignored the 5 words highlighted from my OP.

I didn't

Anyways, without a male heir Edward and others would not discount Edmund, and while Edward remains sonless would likely be proclaimed his heir if the nobles won't accept *Eleanor.
It depends whether Edward is willing to risk another Anarchy situation and the views of the contemporary nobles.

Of course if she is married to another English noble with royal descent then all bets are off as to who the nobles support and whether Edmund would make a claim.
And of course don't forget Arthur son of John of Brittany and Edmund's older sister Beatrice!