Longer Living Kaiser Frederick III

[TheRockofChickamauga]

Kaiser Frederick III of Germany has always been an interesting figure to me. He seemed to have so much potential in his youths, combining a knack for military skill with an interest in the increasing progressivism that defined the era he lived in. Of course, his reign would but cut to only a few months by his cancer caused by his smoking habit. But lets say, for whatever reason, Frederick never develops his smoking addiction, and lives to be longer. What are some potential effects of this? I've heard it said that if he lived longer, he could have either prevented WWI or make a conflict much more favorable to Germany. Is this true? I'm working on a TL where a plan to include him, but I want to learn some butterflies of his reign being extended before I start crafting ideas.

 

[Nivek]

Didn't FIII was a british spy and he and her wife were fedding britain with intelligence?

 

[InMediasRes]

With him on the throne and Victoria as Empress, relations with Britain would definitely be better. Depending on how stable that is, that might be enough to butterfly away WW1 as we know it. Also, Bismarck will be gone almost immediately after Frederick takes over. I'd say a Franco-Russian alliance becomes even more certain ITTL, since all other options are mostly off the table, seeing how Germany is friends wih Austria-Hungary and Britain. In any Great Power confrontation Germany would be better off ITTL, as the 3 always beat the 2, basically the inverse of OTL.

That said, I don't know if this particular constellation is stable. Some of the underlying tensions are still there. Germany will grow economically and eventually outpace Britain. Calls for a fleet to protect trade and colonies will grow. The German populace and large parts of the political spectrum will not like playing second fiddle to Britain, even if it appeals to Victoria and by extension Frederick. At the same time, Britain might grow wary of the change in power dynamics. Once Edward VII ascends things might also change. While he was close to his sister Victoria, he was definitely not friendly to Germany in general (preceding any Wilhelm II shenanigans or fleet build up). And he would definitely worry about succession with Frederick being over 70 during Edward's reign and Wilhelm and Edward's antipathy most likely still persisting ITTL.

 

[UCB79]

With him on the throne and Victoria as Empress, relations with Britain would definitely be better. Depending on how stable that is, that might be enough to butterfly away WW1 as we know it. Also, Bismarck will be gone almost immediately after Frederick takes over. I'd say a Franco-Russian alliance becomes even more certain ITTL, since all other options are mostly off the table, seeing how Germany is friends wih Austria-Hungary and Britain. In any Great Power confrontation Germany would be better off ITTL, as the 3 always beat the 2, basically the inverse of OTL.

That said, I don't know if this particular constellation is stable. Some of the underlying tensions are still there. Germany will grow economically and eventually outpace Britain. Calls for a fleet to protect trade and colonies will grow. The German populace and large parts of the political spectrum will not like playing second fiddle to Britain, even if it appeals to Victoria and by extension Frederick. At the same time, Britain might grow wary of the change in power dynamics. Once Edward VII ascends things might also change. While he was close to his sister Victoria, he was definitely not friendly to Germany in general (preceding any Wilhelm II shenanigans or fleet build up). And he would definitely worry about succession with Frederick being over 70 during Edward's reign and Wilhelm and Edward's antipathy most likely still persisting ITTL.

Why In would FIII have gotten rid of Bismarck? I know he & Wilhelm didn't exactly get along- mainly becauseWilhelm wanted to be Bismarck himself- but I am not aware of any such issues between FIII &
Bismarck. Let me know In if I am wrong, if that wasn't the case.

 

[Help]

Why In would FIII have gotten rid of Bismarck? I know he & Wilhelm didn't exactly get along- mainly becauseWilhelm wanted to be Bismarck himself- but I am not aware of any such issues between FIII &
Bismarck. Let me know In if I am wrong, if that wasn't the case.

Bismarck still was horrid domestically, trying to provoke a Socialist revolt.

 

[InMediasRes]

Why In would FIII have gotten rid of Bismarck? I know he & Wilhelm didn't exactly get along- mainly becauseWilhelm wanted to be Bismarck himself- but I am not aware of any such issues between FIII &
Bismarck. Let me know In if I am wrong, if that wasn't the case.

Well, prior to 1888 Wilhelm and Bismarck got along pretty well actually. Bismarck and his son tried to cultivate a relationship with Wilhelm, precisely because they were in stark opposition to Wilhelm's parents. Of course once Wilhelm was in power things changed for various reasons. Different views on the social issue, Bismarck filtering information that reached Wilhelm and generally trying to keep absolute control like under Wilhelm I.

Frederick, however, was basically arch-enemies with Bismarck since almost forever. At least since he married Victoria. Victoria absolutely despised Bismarck as well. Friedrich had the reputation of bowing to his English wife and not putting German interests first. Much of the more conservative court faction, including Bismarck, were very suspicious of their ideas of British liberalism. Both Friedrich and Victoria were basically ostracized at court. Bismarck actively tried to seperate Wilhelm from his parents to prevent him from following in their footsteps ideologically, and the parents were aware of Bismarck's machinations.

I think it's almost assured FIII would get rid of Bismarck at the earliest opportunity, if at all politically feasible.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Delaying Ww1 is always a possibility, but I think you need to consider the fact that the French want another round with Germany.

 

[UCB79]

Well, prior to 1888 Wilhelm and Bismarck got along pretty well actually. Bismarck and his son tried to cultivate a relationship with Wilhelm, precisely because they were in stark opposition to Wilhelm's parents. Of course once Wilhelm was in power things changed for various reasons. Different views on the social issue, Bismarck filtering information that reached Wilhelm and generally trying to keep absolute control like under Wilhelm I.

Frederick, however, was basically arch-enemies with Bismarck since almost forever. At least since he married Victoria. Victoria absolutely despised Bismarck as well. Friedrich had the reputation of bowing to his English wife and not putting German interests first. Much of the more conservative court faction, including Bismarck, were very suspicious of their ideas of British liberalism. Both Friedrich and Victoria were basically ostracized at court. Bismarck actively tried to seperate Wilhelm from his parents to prevent him from following in their footsteps ideologically, and the parents were aware of Bismarck's machinations.

I think it's almost assured FIII would get rid of Bismarck at the earliest opportunity, if at all politically feasible.

Thanks In- you know a lot more than me about this aspect of German history! Which leads me to ask a
question. I do have a biography of Vicky- AN UNCOMMON WOMAN by Hannah Pakula(1995)- but I'm
afraid it's on my current long list of books I own but haven't been able to get to yet. Have you read AUW?
If so, what did you think of it?

 

[InMediasRes]

Thanks In- you know a lot more than me about this aspect of German history! Which leads me to ask a
question. I do have a biography of Vicky- AN UNCOMMON WOMAN by Hannah Pakula(1995)- but I'm
afraid it's on my current long list of books I own but haven't been able to get to yet. Have you read AUW?
If so, what did you think of it?

I haven't read it, though I would caution not to take this as the whole story. A work primarily focused on Victoria's viewpoint and presumably reliant solely on English-language sources, is going to present a very British-leaning narrative of historical events. For example, Victoria's reports to her English relatives around the death of Friedrich about how Wilhelm wanted to usurp his dying father etc. are highly misleading and probably colored by a huge dose of grief. But they were mostly taken as truth in England and did a lot to worsen relations between the two royal houses. If a biography based their narrative largely on Victoria's correspondonce, it's not going to present a very balanced picture.

Reading the reviews strengthens my suspicion that this biography comes close to a hagiography of the perfect Victoria, struggling against the evil Prussians in the form of Machiavellian Bismarck and her mad, megalomaniacal son. One review reads: "The story is partly about two essentially good people, Vicki and her husband, Fritz, producing the Caligula of the nineteenth century. Wilhelm II was the imbecile who led the charge to WWI, and nearly destroyed Germany in the process."

While those are not the author's words, if that is the impression readers get from this book, I'm gonna be very sceptical. If that's really how things are portrayed in this book, I might as well straight up read British war propaganda.

It does sound interesting, though, and I might pick it up just to get a better understanding of things from Victoria's perspective.