Liberal Democratic Germany ww2?

If the Pacific goes the way it did in OTL then Japan gets steamrolled faster by both the UK and US. Stalin isn't going to start something in Europe as he is not a fool. The US/UK has no reason to ask the USSR to help them out in the Pacific. Korea isn't split and is unified. The communists lose in China due to the resources from the West can just be pumped into China instead of Europe.

I think that Japan will need to be invaded by land as the atomic bomb has not been developed yet due to the quicker Allied victory. Europe isn't ravaged by war except for the civil war in Spain. Mussolini gets a Franco longgivity in Italy. Ultimately you see a better economically developed Europe. I'll stop here maybe add to this later.
 

McPherson

Banned
Having a parliamentary majority together with the DNVP (quite possible) and using the non-parliamentary movements (such as the Stahlhelm) and the tools of the state (the army, the police) to crush any street protests thrown up by the communists and other opposition. It is quite possible for a democracy to be authoritarian and still a democracy. One of the main reasons Germany became a dictatorship was that it was relatively young as a democracy and did not have the institutional inertia to resist it. A lot of people wanted a strong nationalist party that took control, banned communism, restored order to the streets and "restored the pride and position of Germany". That was the main reason people voted for the nazis, not their anti-semitism or that they wanted a dictatorship.
I reject that idea. It would be like claiming the Confederate States of America was a "liberal democracy" that formed itself on a principle of states' rights instead of the evil economic and political principle of the right to own and exploit human beings because they were considered inferior and therefore open to such pernicious evil denial of their human dignity, human rights and civil rights.

The German state that allowed the Hitlerites into power had not developed the "rule of law" and the "individual concept of a free human being equal before that law" which is the hallmark of a modern liberal democracy and part of the theory and practice of the polity governing itself through such recognition of the individual human dignity, of the individual human rights and civil rights.

Weimar had the trappings and fixings, like the Confederates did. Where the analogy functionally stops, is that there was a political movement and tradition that was truly liberal democratic inside the Americans. Imperfect as it was and still deeply flawed down to the present, that liberalism took to the field and ended the Confederate slavocracy and the evil political system that supported its rotten edifice.

The Germans did not do that at the crunch time. There were no liberals, or not enough to take the Nazis down by force of arms in Weimar. That was left to the rest of the world to do. THAT is the reality. So if someone claims that Germany of the Kaiser or of the Weimar was a "liberal democracy", that is not the actual case. The German polity of the era, especially in its power elites and in its army did not reject Hitler, did not reject the Nazis, did not reject the evil the Nazis publicly preached, the way the northern and western regions of the United States rejected the Confederate rat bastards, who openly preached racism and the right to own slaves. The polities of those regions rejected the power-elitist slavocrats who polluted the United States socially and economically with their notions of privilege. The American liberals put down the slavocrats' King Cotton economic system of sanctioned and legalized human bondage at bayonet point. And yet... We are still trying to fix our system, because the rat bastards who championed the racism and that fictional and perjurous lie of divine right or social Darwinist economic and political and social iniquity (Unreconstructed Confederates) are still with us. You can tell liberal democracy by its raucous activity, for the liberal democrat citizens will not accept a government that violates their rights or oversteps the dignity of the individual human being. Show me a system that is "soziale Kontrolle und Ordnung" and I will look for secret police and paid informers, sort of like what 1930s Germany quickly and all too easily became by 1935 before the real Nazi horrors kicked in.

That is the metric. Did the German liberals take up guns to end genocide, mass murder, enslavement, racism, and colonial imperialist ambitions before the Hitlerite criminal conspiracy became the state law? Did they reject the BIG LIE? Did they fight against Hitler? Or did they fight and die for him?

McP.
 
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I reject that idea. It would be like claiming the Confederate States of America was a "liberal democracy" that formed itself on a principle of states' rights instead of the evil economic and political principle of the right to own and exploit human beings because they were considered inferior and therefore open to such pernicious evil denial of their human dignity, human rights and civil rights.
It did not - the states' rights in the CSA was lower than in the USA, since states were constitutionally prohibited to abolish slavery even if they wanted to by the CSA constitution. CSA was never about any kind of states' rights, it was always about preserving slavery and nothing else.

The same politicians that suddenly talked states' rights in 1860 were peachy about the Missouri Compromise, which denied states the right to choose for themselves wether or not they wanted to join USA as free or slave states. The were a-okay with the Fugitive Slave Act, which gave slave owners the right to point at black people in free states and claim them as their runaway slaves and forced the free state to apprehend and deliver said black person - without any kind of due process, evidence, haebus corpus or trial, often in violation of said state's own laws. And they loved the Dred Scott v Sandford supreme court decision, where the supreme court held that slave owners had the right to move to free states with their slaves and keep them enslaved there, in violation of said free states' laws.

States' rights my lily-white pasty flabby arse.
 

McPherson

Banned
It did not - the states' rights in the CSA was lower than in the USA, since states were constitutionally prohibited to abolish slavery even if they wanted to by the CSA constitution. CSA was never about any kind of states' rights, it was always about preserving slavery and nothing else.

That is not it. One misunderstands what I wrote.

Here. One of the major rat bastards who created the propaganda and political theories that led to the ACW.

Here. That rat bastard was an Unreconstructed Confederate and one of the architects of the BIG LIE post war of the "Noble Lost Cause".

Here. Some of the Confederates operated as if they believed in their own lies, just as the Nazis did.

Comment: It is obvious to me that one knows very little about the politics of the American Civil War (popular sovereignty), about the Copperheads, about the Missouri Kansas border war, Indiana's military occupation of Kentucky or Georgia's governor's own rebellion inside the Confederacy over "states' rights"

The only reason slavery survived at all, and this is misunderstood by non-Americans, is because the American power elite formed a "national consensus" that to gloss over the issue and to elevate slavocrats' property rights over citizens' human rights was a "great compromise", needed to stabilize "the union" promulgated by this rat bastard, Notice that he was from Kentucky?

The same politicians that suddenly talked states' rights in 1860 were peachy about the Missouri Compromise, which denied states the right to choose for themselves wether or not they wanted to join USA as free or slave states. The were a-okay with the Fugitive Slave Act, which gave slave owners the right to point at black people in free states and claim them as their runaway slaves and forced the free state to apprehend and deliver said black person - without any kind of due process, evidence, haebus corpus or trial, often in violation of said state's own laws. And they loved the Dred Scott v Sandford supreme court decision, where the supreme court held that slave owners had the right to move to free states with their slaves and keep them enslaved there, in violation of said free states' laws.

States' rights my lily-white pasty flabby arse.
One needs to read these to really understand what happened.

Timeline... Massacre of Marais des Cygnes. That is about one month before Lincoln finally asks Douglas to explain about his botched 1854 Kansas Nebraska Act.

Timeline... Stephen Douglas' series of mistakes.

In other words, one does not know the actual course of events at all. I do have an advantage. Lived here, had this poured into me since I was a child, and like the Pacific War, I have studied it. I wanted to know why this nation killed 700,000 of its own citizens over "states' rights" (the BIG LIE made popular by bastards such as Woodrow Wilson) when it was actually slavery that was the issue. Turns out that we had evil men as reprehensible as any spawned by any nation anywhere, but we had good men, too. For every bastard like Joe E. Brown, this nation stood up an Oliver P. Morton. For every small-minded incompetent like Stephen Douglas, there was an Abraham Lincoln.

But this is about actually Germany, and the false claim that it was a liberal democracy. Where was its Lincoln? What political movement was there at which we can point existed, that was clearly what we could define as "liberal"?

Ever hear of Franz Sigel? "Germany" kicked him out. So much for German "liberalism".

That was 1848 by the way. The unification and the "Kaiser period" of Bismarckism, followed by that idiot, Kaiser Bill II whose governance was to plague humanity and be an international disruption for more than thirty years shows us what Germany really was in the era.

That was not liberalism.
 

Maxell

Banned
Again though, this isn't a "liberal" democracy then. If it's authoritarian and committing the holocaust (as OP suggests) then it's not a liberal democracy. It's something else.

By definition "a democratic system of government in which individual rights and freedoms are officially recognized and protected, and the exercise of political power is limited by the rule of law".

I totally agree that you can have an authoritarian democracy that uses into militarism and shady interpretations of the law to it's own ends, but if you're killing Jews, Poles etc en masse, then they don't fit the definition of a "liberal" democracy anymore. The question doesn't really make sense in that context.
Look at how horrificaly the democratic nations of the west treated their colonial subjects, could we apply the same metric of thought with Weimar Germany in this case?
 

Maxell

Banned
Look at how horrificaly the democratic nations of the west treated their colonial subjects, could we apply the same metric of thought with Weimar Germany in this case?
Well for the case of Germany people need to remember that a lot of what the Nazis believed were nothing new and infact not only existed for centuries, but were actually well embraced within the official Weimar constitution, hence that liberalism wasn't simply going to kill off the conquering spirit. Simply put that even with a liberal mindset the fact of the matter is that Germany’s expansionist ideology and their idea of the German master race was not dead yet and while the parties within the Weimar Republic hate each other a lot they do tend to unilaterally agree on the idea that Germany must trample over the Versailles treaty at all costs aswell as conquer and expand. Infact during ww2 the soldiers made it a really big point in the fact that it has been Germany who had always been the main villain in both world wars and that it was very likely they’d be the main antagonist in the 3rd. Many people tend to attempt to downplay how similar the Nazis were in style to the Kaiserreich and Weimar Republic, in particular their attitude to Eastern Europe. Infact the Weimar Repulic was actually rearming immediately after the end of the 1910s and resumed gas production aswell as arms manufacturing after 1921 while Panzers were invented in 1927-29. Clearly Hitler had some help prior to his take over and rebuilding of the German army.
 
Would a germany that stays a liberal democracy still end up being a country that plays a big role in starting ww2 and by the end, still be perceived as the main antagonist of the war similar to the nazis OTL? Complete with the atrocities and horrors of war of course.

If so, how would it start, what conditions would be needed to do such a thing, how would it play out, and what would be the aftermath?
I think Germany staying as a liberal democracy instead of becoming Nazis or (Insert any totalitarian or any radical ideology) would mean that it likely wouldn’t be perceived as the a main antagonists (Unless they lost), and almost certainly wouldn’t be committing systemic atrocities like they did in our world (E.g The Holocaust). However, I think if liberal democracy succeeded in early 20th century Germany, it’s very likely that it would have a big role in starting WW2, except instead of launching a war of aggression like in OTL it would probably be defending liberal democracy against either a fascist Italy or more likely, the commie USSR, both at the time totalitarian dictatorships.
 
Have you heard of the democratic peoples Republic of korea?
Your point? Your idea seems to be that Germany was the most Democratic country in WW1. Yet it still had a substantial involvement from the monarch while for instance France did not. Ergo France was more democratic.
Edit: Also New Zealand was the first country to have votes for women so they probably take the cake for most democratic.
 
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Maxell

Banned
I think Germany staying as a liberal democracy instead of becoming Nazis or (Insert any totalitarian or any radical ideology) would mean that it likely wouldn’t be perceived as the a main antagonists (Unless they lost), and almost certainly wouldn’t be committing systemic atrocities like they did in our world (E.g The Holocaust). However, I think if liberal democracy succeeded in early 20th century Germany, it’s very likely that it would have a big role in starting WW2, except instead of launching a war of aggression like in OTL it would probably be defending liberal democracy against either a fascist Italy or more likely, the commie USSR, both at the time totalitarian dictatorships.
It is still very likely it would adopt a racist ideology and it's very likely too that a more chaotic and less coherent holocaust would happen. Think less industrial bureaucracy and more "rape, search and destroy". It's also less likely that the Germans would admit the existence of the holocaust BECAUSE it was a democracy, since there wouldn't be the Nazi party to act as a fall guy or a central figure they can blame for having "forced them" like Hitler, so no German can reasonably say that "They were just following orders", so expect mainstream genocide denial like in Turkey. Also the weimar republic at the time was helping the USSR. The Germans had less reason to sympathize with the western democracies UK, France and Czechslovakia than a fellow threat to european peace like the USSR. Infact part of the reason why the Weimar Republic was still able to rearm was thanks to the USSR, particularly with Tanks.
 
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Genkou

Banned
Do liberal democracies warmonger would be a good question. I mean at least in ww1, Germany technically declared war first, and in ww2 UK/France declared war first but with justification of Alliance with Poland.
 

Maxell

Banned
Do liberal democracies warmonger would be a good question. I mean at least in ww1, Germany technically declared war first, and in ww2 UK/France declared war first but with justification of Alliance with Poland.
Oh they definitely do. Take for instance the Spanish American war. Spain was by then a constitutional monarchy and gone were the days of the inquisition, as the king by then was less of a Tsar or a Bruneian sultan, and more a British and Italian constitutionalist. Not to mention the US was the clear aggressor in the conflict and they commited horrific war crimes. In the Philippines they killed every male above 10, kicker was though that the Philippines too was a democracy at the time.
 
It is still very likely it would adopt a racist ideology and it's very likely too that a more chaotic and less coherent holocaust would happen. Think less industrial bureaucracy and more "rape, search and destroy". It's also less likely that the Germans would admit the existence of the holocaust BECAUSE it was a democracy, since there wouldn't be the Nazi party to act as a fall guy or a central figure they can blame for having "forced them" like Hitler, so no German can reasonably say that "They were just following orders", so expect mainstream genocide denial like in Turkey. Also the weimar republic at the time was helping the USSR. The Germans had less reason to sympathize with the western democracies UK, France and Czechslovakia than a fellow threat to european peace like the USSR. Infact part of the reason why the Weimar Republic was still able to rearm was thanks to the USSR, particularly with Tanks.
Hmmm…I think Weimar Germany wouldn’t adopt a racist ideology. Democracies don’t have state ideologies. Nevertheless, a disorganised Holocaust could happen.

I mean, the US, a democracy, committed a whole host of war crimes in Vietnam.
 

Maxell

Banned
Hmmm…I think Weimar Germany wouldn’t adopt a racist ideology. Democracies don’t have state ideologies. Nevertheless, a disorganised Holocaust could happen.

I mean, the US, a democracy, committed a whole host of war crimes in Vietnam.
Not in the sense of state ideology definitely but as a dominant philosophy the holocaust can still happen.
 
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