Latin Language and Writing

Hello.

Imagine this scenario. The Roman Empire with the borders of Elbe and Danube and with Mesopotamia survive intact and even colonized the Americas after about AD 1500. Now, in the North and West, Latin is the dominant language, with the Celtic and Germanic Languages extinct or dying. The religion is Catholic and Orthodoxy, but in this scenario, they are just the same religion, with the single empire preventing a major split, with five patriarchs in Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem heading the Church.

Now, when I say Latin, I meant New Latin. Obviously, the Latin of the Republic and Empire won't remain static, and the spoken language is different. It diverged, of course, with Latin dialects in Spain, in Germany, in Gaul, in Britain, and Africa. But let's say that mass education in the 1700s to the present managed to impose the dialect of Italy on all the others, so despite all the different dialects, everyone could speak and understand the Italian standard, along with the local Vulgar dialect.

My question is, is it possible for the people to write and read classical Latin to write modern spoken Vulgar Latin? Could the state impose that everyone write and read only in classical Latin even if they speak the New Modern Latin? And that written Vulgar never actually develop?

My idea is that people, in order to read and write, need to know classical Latin, even if they cannot speak the language, and when they read the classical Latin, they would pronounce the words using modern pronunciation. For example, when reading the name Marcus Marius, people would think that it is pronounced Marco Mario, and that when seeing the word and month Augustus, they immediately without thinking read it as Agosto.

Is this possible? My aim is even if the language spoken in the modern time is different from the one spoken 2,000 years ago, it is perfect possible for a literate person to read something written 2,000 years ago without difficulty. Thus, the fact that the ancient Romans and the modern Romans speak different spoken languages, it won't matter that much since there is no recording device in the past where the moderns can actually listen to how the ancients actually spoke.
 
Decoupled from the spoken language, it would be a complete pain in the ass to learn but I don't see why not. You'd effectively make Latin into two separate dialects, one spoken and one written. I can't see that situation lasting forever though since you'd need to translate between spoken and written every time you read something out loud. Eventually they're going to reform the written language for convenience sake.
 
My question is, is it possible for the people to write and read classical Latin to write modern spoken Vulgar Latin? Could the state impose that everyone write and read only in classical Latin even if they speak the New Modern Latin? And that written Vulgar never actually develop?

Seems unlikely once the printing press makes mass dissemination of written work possible. Publishers will be eager to print things in the vernacular for the benefit of mass appeal to the lower classes that don't have the benefit of formal education in Latin.
 
It's possible. It'll be a bit like English with its conventions on groups of letters having same or varying pronunciation eg final um pronounced ow, c silent or j before t etc.
 
Rember that iOTL French wasn't recognized as anything more than 'bad Latin' until the Serment de Strasbourg in 842. 'Italian' didn't exist until after the millennium.
Note, also, that iOTL Arabic exists as what would be different languages if the text of the Quran weren't fixed and continued as the formal dialect.
Also, the various German languages all pretended that they were dialects of Luther's German Bible.
Given a continuing Empire, I rather suspect that between a thousand years of bureaucratic records and Holy Scripture in a fixed form, that Latin on paper would stay essentially unchanged, with bureaucrats, clergy and scholars speaking a high-register version of the language, and the common folk speaking increasingly divergent patois that perhaps never get officially recognized.
 
I wonder if its possible to have an Empire that is powerful enough on a personal level to dictate the written language in such a fashion but not the spokdn language. Some standardized spoken form is going to be needed for government functions. It is likely to be based on the written form. I have to think it would win out over the dialects.
 
lol lots of words in English you CANNOT pronounce until someone tells you how to - academician was one that came up today

I could certainly see a world where spelling equates to a different pronunciation

Latin alphabets have that everywhere - just try to read Polish without knowing how!
 
The vernacular being sidelined is fully possible, but the scenario you're suggesting would likely require Latin to not be written with alphabets.
The scenario with drastically divergent written and spoken languages happens in a number of languages written using Brahmic alphabets particularly in the context of religious writings.

For example, Tibetan orthography became static in the 11th century while the spoken language continued to evolve. A transliteration of how the current Dalai Lama's name is written in Tibetan would be bstan 'dzin rgya mtsho. Compare this to the phonetic transliteration: ten dzin gya tso. The main regions of Tibet are dbus gtsang (U-Tsang), khams (Kham), and a mdo (Amdo).

Thai replicates the orthography of Sanskrit and Pali as accurately as possible using the Thai alphabet, but words from those languages are then read with their Thai pronunciations. So the result is that Thai religious texts are utterly unintelligible to Sanskrit speakers when read out loud. For example, Bangkok's airport Suvarnabhumi is a transliteration of how the Sanskrit word is written in Thai. When spoken though, the name is pronounced Suwannaphum. The late king's name, spelled and transliterated as Bhumibol Adulyadej, is pronounced Phumiphon Adunyadet.

The hardest thing would be keeping the grammar between the two languages separate; however, if for thousands of years Chinese people could write in a language with a different grammar system from the spoken languages, there's no reason Romans can't either.
 
The situation you describe sounds to me very similar to the one in Norway when it was ruled by Denmark. Even though Danish was the only official language, it was spoken not just with a Norwegian "accent", but sometimes saying a Norwegian word when reading a Danish one. After independence a written Norwegian language had to be invented.
Take a look also at Middle Persian (Pahlavi), using an alphabet derived from Aramaic, in which an Aramaic word would often be written but the Persian word would be read. It would be as if we used a Cyrillic alphabet and when we saw спасибо written we read "thanks".
 
Top