Lands of Red and Gold

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What breeds of dog do you think the aborigines of this TL will develop?

As the private said to the sergeant when asked what steps he would take if outnumbered ten to one by the enemy: dirty great big ones.

I'd expect three main general sorts of dog breeds. Hunting dogs, including retrievers to get all of those waterbirds out of the wetlands. Companion dogs, as pets for people of high status. Food dogs, of breeds who are raised specifically for providing food.

Is Junditmara-style aquaculture transferable to New Zealand? Not necessarily the specific fish and eel species involved, but the basic idea?

It might be possible, but New Zealand's soil and rainfall are bountiful enough that it's not really needed on a large scale.

And if so, I can see a number of rather angry platypi being transported eastward and then dumped into the rivers as a future source of meat, fur and eggs. And milk.

Hmm, trying to milk a platypus... that would be fun. :) Thankfully it's only the males that are venomous.

Huh, I just realized that you could actually get all the components for a traditional breakfast from a platypus. :p

Don't tell the platypus that; they're scared enough of people as it is.

1) meteoric iron was used early and was often regarded as superlative metal. But that's not what I was talking about

The question is whether the Hittites early use of iron was meteoric iron. I've found a couple of references online which say that it was, and some which say that it wasn't. (In the affirmative here and in the negative here. I may have to find some written sources, since the online stuff is so contradictory.

2) Can I find a reference to what I was talking about? Ha! Looking at various websites, one sees dates as early as 1800 or even 2000 BC (BCE) for iron working. OTOH, iron doesn't become a superweapon until the Hittites around, say 1200 BC.

The online sources I found gave wildly differing dates for the Hittite use of iron. Some say 1500 BC, some say 1600 BC, some say 2000 BC or even earlier. Still got to figure that one out.

I THINK that 500+ years of iron being used but not important is what I'm talking about. I distinctly read some stuff about bad/spongy/worse than bronze iron, but that was decades ago and I don't have clue where.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes. All Western iron was inferior to bronze until some better steels were developed in medieval times (or maybe Roman, depending on who you ask). Iron was spread because it had advantages of quantity, not quality, over bronze. But as far as I know, it was nothing to do with applying copper smelting techniques to iron. Western ironworking was based on burning iron ore with some sort of carbon to reduce the iron ore to iron without fully melting it. (The Chinese melted iron in blast furnaces, but this wasn't done in Western ironworking until much later).
 
I'm loving this timeline, the level of details placed into it, whether it be cultural, ecological, agricultural etc. Suffice to say, it has kind of given me food for thought about how I should approach and express my AH ideas. Alas, work does not afford me the time for the devotion and amount of research that you have obviously poured into this work.

I had a short question about the Atjuntja and Yuduwungu people of the Southwest, are they in anyway cultural descendants of the OTL Nyoongars (or some of the many sub-clans like the Whadjuk, Bibbulmun, Pinjarup) or are they very culturally distinct?

I did have a vague idea of a semi monotheistic faith based on Wagyl/Waakal the Rainbow Serpent and it's "Mecca"

The Holy Golden Shrine of the Rainbow Serpent (loosely based on the Sikh's Harmandir Sahib in Amritsar) erected on the shores of Lake Walliabup (Bibra Lake) with a huge Golden Serpent arising from the waters (I know very phallic in nature :eek::p)

Though I'm very anxious to find out the source for the comment "You don't want to know what goes on in a Yuduwungu Temple!" :D

Also I wonder about the smaller off-shore yet still decently sized islands such as Fraser Island, Rottnest, Garden Island, Kangaroo Island, Flinders Island, King Island etc. Do any of these show potential for at least small to mid scale-settlement?
 
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Also I wonder about the smaller off-shore yet still decently sized islands such as Fraser Island, Rottnest, Garden Island, Kangaroo Island, Flinders Island, King Island etc. Do any of these show potential for at least small to mid scale-settlement?

This comment made me wonder about what happened with the natives of Tasmania when civilized *Australian started visiting in small boats? Did they retreat inland, or did they integrate themselvbes with the newcommers, adopting their techniques and/or their culture?

If Wikipedia is right, Tasmanians had arrived there on foot, when sea levels where lower than today, and had lost all contact with the mainland after they went up. If this is right, Tasmanians would have seen *Australians as people very different from themselves, as, although they would have had common ancestors, these would have lived more than 10.000 years ago. *Australians technology would be very strange for Tasmanians. Their diseases might cause a few problems there too. However, in the long right, I think they could have survived and integrated themselves with newcommers.
 
This comment made me wonder about what happened with the natives of Tasmania when civilized *Australian started visiting in small boats? Did they retreat inland, or did they integrate themselvbes with the newcommers, adopting their techniques and/or their culture?

If Wikipedia is right, Tasmanians had arrived there on foot, when sea levels where lower than today, and had lost all contact with the mainland after they went up. If this is right, Tasmanians would have seen *Australians as people very different from themselves, as, although they would have had common ancestors, these would have lived more than 10.000 years ago. *Australians technology would be very strange for Tasmanians. Their diseases might cause a few problems there too. However, in the long right, I think they could have survived and integrated themselves with newcommers.

I would think that a sedentary lifestyle plus the impact of agriculture have combine to cause a profound physiological (morphological? I always mix these kinds of terms) change in mainland Australians. So much so, that the Tasmanians might think of them too alien in comparison to themselves. However that shouldn't prevent a hospitable reception and cultural exchange. After all, Jared have the Maori making contact without too much fuss.

I do wonder how suitable Tasmania really is for Australia's agricultural package, it does have some significant areas of relative fertile soils IIRC and rather heavy rainfall but is rather cool compared to the mainland. In OTL, agriculturally, it's renowned for its apples, stone fruits, wines and cheeses. It also exports a lot of premium seafood. As Jared pointed out, it also has sizable mineral deposits especially Tin.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
Is Junditmara-style aquaculture transferable to New Zealand? Not necessarily the specific fish and eel species involved, but the basic idea?

And if so, I can see a number of rather angry platypi being transported eastward and then dumped into the rivers as a future source of meat, fur and eggs. And milk.

Huh, I just realized that you could actually get all the components for a traditional breakfast from a platypus. :p

Because who doesn't take a little fur with their eggs every morning?
 

The Sandman

Banned
Because who doesn't take a little fur with their eggs every morning?

I was thinking platypus bacon, actually.

The fur would be what you'd make the napkin out of. Utensils from the skeleton, plate from the bill, and you're good to go. :D

Actually, if platypus are, well, not domesticated so much as being encouraged to live where they can easily be harvested, have there been any *Aborigines who've tried to collect the venom? I'd think that a venom that causes immense pain and paralysis without actually killing or permanently injuring its victim (at least, when used on humans; perhaps it could also be used as an *Aboriginal rat poison?) would have some sort of use.
 

Riain

Banned
The problem with Platypus is that they are the only poisonous mammal, the males have a spur on their hind legs that is backed by a poison gland. So pardon me if I'm not ovely keen of trying catch a platypus to have for lunch, apparently the poison spur hurts like hell if the male stabs you.
 
I'm loving this timeline, the level of details placed into it, whether it be cultural, ecological, agricultural etc.

Glad you like it.

Suffice to say, it has kind of given me food for thought about how I should approach and express my AH ideas. Alas, work does not afford me the time for the devotion and amount of research that you have obviously poured into this work.

Hope you find the time to write something; more AH is always good.

I had a short question about the Atjuntja and Yuduwungu people of the Southwest, are they in anyway cultural descendants of the OTL Nyoongars (or some of the many sub-clans like the Whadjuk, Bibbulmun, Pinjarup) or are they very culturally distinct?

They aren't really cultural descendants in any sense. They are the people who would have become the Noongar (or Nyoongar, or several other spellings), but they're more or less completely different. There's a few details of their beliefs which I've incorporated in a very changed form, and I've also used some actual Noongar words for the Atjuntja and related languages, but with completely different meanings.

I did have a vague idea of a semi monotheistic faith based on Wagyl/Waakal the Rainbow Serpent and it's "Mecca"

The Holy Golden Shrine of the Rainbow Serpent (loosely based on the Sikh's Harmandir Sahib in Amritsar) erected on the shores of Lake Walliabup (Bibra Lake) with a huge Golden Serpent arising from the waters (I know very phallic in nature :eek::p)

Does the high priest carry a rod of office?

Though I'm very anxious to find out the source for the comment "You don't want to know what goes on in a Yuduwungu Temple!" :D

Heh. There's several kinds of Atjuntja temples. But only one which will really get noticed by the Dutch and other Europeans - the one which is formally called the House of Absolution, although most Atjuntja give it another name.

All will be revealed in the post on the Atjuntja, which is more or less finished, except the usual final edit. (About 7500 words. Gah.) It's still two posts away, though. The next post is an overview of Australia in 1618, which will be followed by a few posts showing more detail about individual cultures. The Atjuntja post will be the first; the second is about the cultures which have arisen on Tasmania.

Also I wonder about the smaller off-shore yet still decently sized islands such as Fraser Island, Rottnest, Garden Island, Kangaroo Island, Flinders Island, King Island etc. Do any of these show potential for at least small to mid scale-settlement?

Kangaroo Island has been inhabited since late Classical times, and will play a significant part in *Australian history. Flinders and King Islands were settled as part of the colonisation of Tasmania. I haven't specified anything for Fraser Island yet, but it might be settled by the Kiyungu who live in the general area. Rottnest and Garden Islands are uninhabited, although they might be visited occasionally. (The Garden Island in WA, that is. The Garden Island in NSW is inhabited.)

This comment made me wonder about what happened with the natives of Tasmania when civilized *Australian started visiting in small boats? Did they retreat inland, or did they integrate themselvbes with the newcommers, adopting their techniques and/or their culture?

The Palawa (Tasmanian Aborigines) were relatively few in number, hunter-gatherers, and vulnerable to Australian diseases. Blue-sleep, anyway; Marnitja had not yet appeared. They were also unfortunate enough to face a mass migration from the mainland. Mainlanders moved across to Tasmania in considerable numbers, mostly due to pressure from mainland enemies and a tin rush. The Palawa weren't wiped out, by any means, but they've been pushed out of a lot of territory.

If Wikipedia is right, Tasmanians had arrived there on foot, when sea levels where lower than today, and had lost all contact with the mainland after they went up. If this is right, Tasmanians would have seen *Australians as people very different from themselves, as, although they would have had common ancestors, these would have lived more than 10.000 years ago. *Australians technology would be very strange for Tasmanians. Their diseases might cause a few problems there too. However, in the long right, I think they could have survived and integrated themselves with newcommers.

The surviving Palawa will certainly pick up a lot of technology from the colonising mainlanders (and the mainlanders will also learn a couple of things from them, of course.) They will, however, be displaced from the most fertile agricultural territories. This is another example of farmers displacing hunter-gatherers. Not completely, but the Palawa will be a demographic minority.

I would think that a sedentary lifestyle plus the impact of agriculture have combine to cause a profound physiological (morphological? I always mix these kinds of terms) change in mainland Australians. So much so, that the Tasmanians might think of them too alien in comparison to themselves. However that shouldn't prevent a hospitable reception and cultural exchange. After all, Jared have the Maori making contact without too much fuss.

The difference between the Maori contact with Australia and mainlanders (Tjunini and Kurnawal) settling Tasmania was the distance of sea lanes which they had to cross. The Maori and mainland Australian peoples didn't really fight because they're too far away to do anything meaningful. Tasmania is a lot closer, and thus easier to conduct a mass migration. That doesn't mean that the mainlanders will deliberately try to kill the Tasmanians, but the demographic tide is going to be against the Tasmanians.

I do wonder how suitable Tasmania really is for Australia's agricultural package, it does have some significant areas of relative fertile soils IIRC and rather heavy rainfall but is rather cool compared to the mainland. In OTL, agriculturally, it's renowned for its apples, stone fruits, wines and cheeses. It also exports a lot of premium seafood. As Jared pointed out, it also has sizable mineral deposits especially Tin.

Parts of Tasmania are quite suitable for the Australian agricultural package. The northern coast of Tasmania isn't that much colder than parts of southern Victoria. The eastern coast is pretty reasonable for growing those crops, too. However, the highland areas of Tasmania are mostly too cold for large-scale agriculture.

What happens is that some of the wattle species don't grow quite so well - bramble wattle and mystery wattle, to be precise. Other domesticated wattle species grow just fine - golden wattle, coastal wattle. Red yams still grow, but they have a shorter growing season, since they start slightly later in the year. As with highland areas on the mainland (the Monaro plateau, for instance), murnong is a relatively more important staple than it is in the warmer areas of the Murray basin.

It's amazing to think that two peoples could live so close together, yet be separated for so long.

It is. Especially since the ancestors of the Aborigines reached Australia (and Tasmania and New Guinea) by crossing waters which were nearly as far apart as Tasmania and Australia. Admittedly Bass Strait is a good deal rougher, what with currents and winds and so forth.

Actually, if platypus are, well, not domesticated so much as being encouraged to live where they can easily be harvested, have there been any *Aborigines who've tried to collect the venom? I'd think that a venom that causes immense pain and paralysis without actually killing or permanently injuring its victim (at least, when used on humans; perhaps it could also be used as an *Aboriginal rat poison?) would have some sort of use.

I'm not sure if platypus would be a major food item. They're not that big, and while their fur would be of some use, it might be too much hassle to collect.

Do platypuses taste good?

I've never tried it. I've heard some claims that it was considered taboo to eat by some Aboriginal peoples, but I'm not sure if that's universal.

Please: platypus, platypi, or if you really must platypodes.

As far as I know, platypuses (or simply platypus) is the plural form used in scientific literature; platypi is incorrect since the word platypus is of Greek derivation, not Latin.

Would that mean the name for a group of platypi would be a platypod?

Only if they're in hibernation.

The problem with Platypus is that they are the only poisonous mammal, the males have a spur on their hind legs that is backed by a poison gland.

To be pedantic, they're not the only poisonous mammal. A couple of species of shrew have venomous bites, as do some weird shrew-like animals which live on Cuba and Hispaniola (I can't remember their name at the moment.)

So pardon me if I'm not ovely keen of trying catch a platypus to have for lunch, apparently the poison spur hurts like hell if the male stabs you.

Depends how hungry you are, I suppose. Platypus (even introduced platypus) may be a minor part of the diet in New Zealand. If there are artificial wetlands there, though, I'd expect fish and waterbirds to be much more important.
 
Jared,

Might be too late now, but I wonder if the *Australians would domesticate the Australian Brush Turkey? Out of the native landfowl it seems the best bet - it has little fear of humans and a catholic diet.

Perhaps its mound-nesting habits would prove difficult in captivity, but on the other hand, there is a distinct positive. Since they do not brood, the females could be slaughtered en-masse at the end of the season if need be, leaving the males to tend to the nest.

The Australian Brush Turkey isn't much found west of the Great Dividing Range, so it would likely be domesticated only later as agriculture filtered into the region. However, it seems like it would be a good idea, particularly in regions where duck and emu farming is more difficult.
 
Speaking of Australian crops and diets, large reptiles such as monitors/goannas were/are still consumed by OTL Aborigines, will it be feasible to have them raised in large numbers in agricultural areas to provide an added handy source of protein, perhaps leather (though I doubt the validity of the latter suggestion)?

Also how about crocodiles, there are a significant number of crocodile farmers nowadays in OTL Australia, raised for meat and leather, as you probably already know all too well. Is it possible that they will also be utilised in your TL's Australian agriculture?

Perhaps some improved wetlands could be devoted solely to crocs to reduce the danger factor involved? Instead of having wetlands shared with other food sources.

Just a thought...
 
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Ah, yes. Those are the venemous little buggers. Sadly critically endangered nowadays.

Jared,

Might be too late now, but I wonder if the *Australians would domesticate the Australian Brush Turkey? Out of the native landfowl it seems the best bet - it has little fear of humans and a catholic diet.

Perhaps its mound-nesting habits would prove difficult in captivity, but on the other hand, there is a distinct positive. Since they do not brood, the females could be slaughtered en-masse at the end of the season if need be, leaving the males to tend to the nest.

I did look at the various mound-nesting species in Australia, especially the malleefowl which does live west of the Great Dividing Range. I came to the conclusion that they are going to be difficult to domesticate. The mound-building is going to be quite a problem in early captivity. Perhaps more important, though, is their temperament. Malleefowl and brush-turkeys who are defending their nests get very aggressive, which would be a problem, and they can be aggressive toward people at other times. They are also aggressive with each other; solitary birds by nature, they do not tolerate living closely with each other (except for pairs for malleefowl). So raising a flock of brush turkeys would be fairly difficult, alas.

The Australian Brush Turkey isn't much found west of the Great Dividing Range, so it would likely be domesticated only later as agriculture filtered into the region. However, it seems like it would be a good idea, particularly in regions where duck and emu farming is more difficult.

Duck and emu farming would probably be sustainable in most areas where people are likely to be farming. The domesticated ducks are grazers who can pretty much live anywhere that grass grows. Emus need space - they can't be locked up in hutches - but can also eat a wide variety of foods. I'm not sure that brush turkeys would add anything useful to the mix, even if they can be domesticated.

Speaking of Australian crops and diets, large reptiles such as monitors/goannas were/are still consumed by OTL Aborigines, will it be feasible to have them raised in large numbers in agricultural areas to provide an added handy source of protein, perhaps leather (though I doubt the validity of the latter suggestion)?

Carnivorous species like monitors are usually difficult to domesticate, since they need to be feed protein themselves before they grow. It's usually easier from a farming point of view to raise herbivores and eat them directly.

Also how about crocodiles, there are a significant number of crocodile farmers nowadays in OTL Australia, raised for meat and leather, as you probably already know all too well. Is it possible that they will also be utilised in your TL's Australian agriculture?

Possibly, on a small scale, in areas which are far enough north. The cities on the Murray itself are too far to the south to sustain crocodiles. I doubt that crocodiles would be useful for meat in themselves - not much of a crocodile is edible. (Crocodile meat today is mostly a by-product.) Crocodile leather would have some attractiveness, though.

Perhaps some improved wetlands could be devoted solely to crocs to reduce the danger factor involved? Instead of having wetlands shared with other food sources.

In areas which are far enough north, there may be something along those lines. I'm not sure whether it would be so much farmed crocodiles as areas where the crocodiles are left alone and hunted when they're big enough to harvest for leather.

[Crocodile Dundie]

Goanna...You c'n live on it, but it tastes loik shit...

[/Crocodile Dundee]

Don't forget to shave with your knife whenever there's a sheila watching...
 
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