Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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I think really tough. You'd have to dam rivers or streams, flood land, and then wait generations for it to fill with decayed vegetation to create the right acidic anaerobic conditions. And then you're counting on the possibility that there'd be the right minerals in the area for an iron producing bog to form. It might not. Some bogs.... are just bogs.

Even then, it would take a long time, assuming that everything was perfect. It takes about thirty years from harvest for iron nodules to reappear in sufficient number and size for the bog to be worth re-harvesting.

So let's say 70 years for the proper kind of bog to form, or not form, 50/50, and then 30 years on top of that for a harvestable crop?

Easier to search out an existing bog with a slick indicating a harvestable crop, or to simply trade or bargain or steal iron.



Well, there's copper mining and tin mining in the vicinity of the Coppermine basin, but mostly these are surface trenches and pits. There's a smelting culture.

The Thule are circulating larger volumes of copper and bronze than of iron. It really is only dominant where distance and costs make it competitive.

I see. But they have wetland agriculture, at least in their southern reaches. They might create bog to grow cattails or sweetflag or whatever and then realize they are growing iron too... or is it too slow to do that?
After all, if it was this easy, Chinese would have harvested iron from rice paddies... :D
 
Oh, and what do the Thule do with native iron (besides using it to kill Chukchi)?

A very good use it is, indeed.

1) Iron weapons and armor

Locally yes. But remember, Alaska, McKenzie is mostly Bronze, Baffin, Hudson and Siberia are mixed Bronze and Iron.


--->expansion of Thule territory into Siberia and possible into central North America

You mean out of the Arctic and Sub-Arctic? Not much. They stick closely to their agricultural and pastoral packages. But they're going to be very good at pushing other peoples out of their sub-actic.

--->what happens when Cree and Haida get their hands on these weapons? Even if they don't know how to make them, they can work like the roman-era Germans and trade for them or steal them)

Not too much. Remember, relatively small volumes.

---> we should expect some centralization of the Thule state(s), with certain regions now suddenly able to arm their soldiers much more effectively than others. I'm thinking East(centralized) versus West (decentralized), although the Transberingians could go either way.

States are emerging. Baffin will be conquering its way to a single polity, as will the McKenzie basin. Alaska's going all feudal. Hudson Bay is the nucleous of a powerful unitary state. The core of the Ellesmere trading network is evolving into a state.


2) Iron farm implements and axes

Big time.

---> better land engineering for crops. Useable cropland extends northward. Perhaps to the detriment of herding subcultures?

There's always going to be a zone of tension between predominantly agricultural and predominantly herding subcultures. Marginal lands reserved for herding are sometimes improved by mound building and drainage activities that the land becomes sustainable for agriculture. Barren lands are incrementally improved to increase the ability of herds to sustain themselves. The Thule are steadily terraforming the north, creating soil and microclimates. In many areas, the albedo of the land shifts steadily to widespread darker and greener over such an area that over a century there are local effects on weather.

---> population boom, although a slow-growing one

Happening all along, and for a variety of reasons.


---> transformation of woodland into farmland, increased (violent) contact with southern tribes

The big push south has already taken place. But demand for wood means a slow mild gnawing all along the edges. The local indians are not happy.


---> assimilation of southeastern Innu ("Montagnais") is this hasn't already happened.

The Innu of labrador are unrelated to the Thule. They're being pushed very hard, their range has been impacted and they've only made minor headway in pushing south to the Cree. They're in an unhappy place.

---> Algic and Salishan peoples pushed southward into Iroquoian, Siouan and maybe Uto-Aztecan peoples.

Already occurred. No one quite has the same borders as they did before the Thule pushed south. But the degree of conflict, and the duration of conflict and movement diminished the further south you went. The Uto-Aztecans probably didn't notice much, if anything.

--->Spread of Bruce into these peoples.

Slow but going on.

Spread of sheep?

Limited to the Thule, and in particular, limited to the less well to do Thule areas.

Whether they pick up any Thule technology is debatable,

Unlikely.

but I wouldn't be surprised if iron trinkets ended up all the way in Tenochtitlan, mediated by the Mississippians (whatever language they spoke).

Some artifacts will travel that distance.

3) Keys and locks
--->cementing the power of a wealthy, mercantile class. Perhaps the advent of banking practice?

Hmmm. Not sure if the Thule will invent money or units of exchange, or simply acquire that from later European contact.


4) Nails
---> changes to boat and house-building. Thule might shun Norse-style houses, but I bet they use Norse-style sheep-sheds.

Likely. It's pretty much a direct lift. But there'll be diversity.

They might also get nailed-together boxes, books, armor, wagons/chariots, and boats (see below)

Metal fasteners certainly. What's the history of nails?

---> we should expect to see nails turning up all over the damn place, along with iron arrow-heads. The Pilgrims, John Smith, and Cortez should all go up against people armed with pointy iron, and maybe even Columbus and Pizarro.

Most Thule iron or bronze stays in the Thule realm.


5) Pots and pans and other cooking utensils
--->soups become easier to make, allowing toothless oldsters to live longer, making society more stable, but also more conservative

A big one, yes. Also, soapstone items. The Norse were adept soapstone carvers, it was one of their exports, and they were good at soapstone artifacts.


--->more trade items. Oh my God trade items.

Among Thule mostly. Some southern trade, but the significance is yet to be determined.

--->wandering blacksmiths (like European tinkers), trading and repairing the iron implements in a given settlement. Leading to increased trade, cohesion over distance, expansion into hinterlands, and labor specialization.

A peculiar category of Shaman?

?) Wooden boats and sailing? If the Norse were sailing from Greenland to Labrador, then I think it's likely.

Not much of a transfer. It takes certain skill sets to build and maintain. All that really passed around was the idea and some descriptions. That will lead to river barges and some coastal boats from river mouths around Labrador
and Hudson Bay. But the Thule are centuries from being deep water sailors.

You'll see more influence of the Pacific coast dugouts.

If so, then we should expect.
---> exponentially increasing trade between Greenland, Transberingia, and mainland Thule, including heavy goods like metals, woods, and slaves.

Not so much. Remember, not a lot of deep water sailing. Mosty short coastal hops. Internal trade will increase as the river waters make barge transport and shipment easier. Greenland will always be fairly isolated. Alaska-Siberia, more tightly bound.


--->Thule exploration down the Atlantic coast of North America (pushing the Three Sisters Algic people south into the South Appalachian Mississippians) and the Pacific coasts of NA (pushing Tsimshianic and Wakashan peoples into the linguistic mess down the coast). Pacific Asia would be particularly appealing, since it's full of mild-weather islands. Again, I stress contact between Thule and Ming China and Muromachi Japan.

The Thule would probably need five to six hundred years to get to that point. But really, they've only got maybe a hundred, hundred and fifty years left before they're big players in the bigger game. Nice notion for an alternative timeline though.


The lessons I take away from this is that from 1450 to 1550, Thule becomes much more centralized, not to say imperialist, and expands (a little south into North America ("Algia?"), a lot east into Transberingia. Trade opens with Siberian tribes, China, possibly Japan, the Mississippians, and (I argue) Iceland. Bruce effects populations in Siberia, central and eastern North America, and Iceland?

Good guesses. Some yes. Some no.
 
I see. But they have wetland agriculture, at least in their southern reaches. They might create bog to grow cattails or sweetflag or whatever and then realize they are growing iron too... or is it too slow to do that?
After all, if it was this easy, Chinese would have harvested iron from rice paddies... :D

Arrowhead you mean? I think that the wetland agriculture near the west coast is going to involve controlled flooding and drainage of shallow tables. Not really bog friendly.

But I give you credit for imagination.
 
Arrowhead you mean? I think that the wetland agriculture near the west coast is going to involve controlled flooding and drainage of shallow tables. Not really bog friendly.

But I give you credit for imagination.

I was thinking of cattails, mostly. They seem to be the only plant whose cultivation could vaguely bring to that with some huge stretch of imagination.
But yes, it is absolutely implausible at best.
 
I think it would be interesting if the only remnant of the Greenlandic Norse would ultimately be a nomadic underclass similar the Roma or Irish travelers. Ethnically mixed, with their religion reduced in great part to folklore. Dispersed widely throughout the Eastern Thule realm, mostly engaging in sheep herding, weaving, blacksmithy, and petty thievery where they could get away with it.
Intreresting to see I wasn't the only one to get that idea upon reading that update :)
 
The horse collar, I'm hoping is 'quiet' revolutionary. Something that someone could see, either grasp the principal immediately or have it easily explained to them, and then readily and easily adapt for Reindeer with wide and rapid acceptance.

Hey, what are the chances that southern people adopting caribou (or moose!) riding? Unlike agriculture, animal-riding might be a relatively easy habit to pick up (as a comparison, it took the comanches about 140 years to adopt horses: http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche Timeline.htm).

Given the historical range of caribou...

view.php


(http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=ht...images/map-caribou-rangeloss.png#.UHW_J66Ge0Y)

Even assuming people don't artificially extend the range of these animals, English settlers at Popham should expect to find the natives with reindeer "cavalries" (rangiferies?).
There will probably also be an effect here with the more rapid spread of disease post-contact.
 
What you'll see are some fairly unpleasant displacement wars, and mixed societies. Chukchi/Koryak hybrid subcultures or mix areas for instance. Or layered class structures, with Itelman as peasants or serfs, and Koryaks as feudal lords.
Awesome.

For the Chinese and Mongols, the most they'll know of the Thule is of an extremely warlike people far to the North, and a lot of the local asses making trouble on their borders, and general wars through the northlands, and they may not even connect one significantly with the other.

The first real 'civilization' that the Siberian Thule will encounter will be Russians. As I've said, its going to a mutually unpleasant surprise.
Fair enough, I suppose, although I think the issue of the Thule not exploring down Sakhalin and Hokkaido should be addressed. I can think of ways to explain a lack of island-hopping, the simplest being that boat technology from Greenland doesn't make it to Alaska.
 
Hey, what are the chances that southern people adopting caribou (or moose!) riding? Unlike agriculture, animal-riding might be a relatively easy habit to pick up (as a comparison, it took the comanches about 140 years to adopt horses: http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche Timeline.htm).

Given the historical range of caribou...

view.php


(http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=ht...images/map-caribou-rangeloss.png#.UHW_J66Ge0Y)

Even assuming people don't artificially extend the range of these animals, English settlers at Popham should expect to find the natives with reindeer "cavalries" (rangiferies?).

There will probably also be an effect here with the more rapid spread of disease post-contact.

Well, there's the matter of size. Consider horses:


Light riding horses usually range in height from 14 to 16 hands (56 to 64 inches, 142 to 163 cm) and can weigh from 380 to 550 kilograms (840 to 1,200 lb).[24] Larger riding horses usually start at about 15.2 hands (62 inches, 157 cm) and often are as tall as 17 hands (68 inches, 173 cm), weighing from 500 to 600 kilograms (1,100 to 1,300 lb).[25] Heavy or draft horses are usually at least 16 hands (64 inches, 163 cm) high and can be as tall as 18 hands (72 inches, 183 cm) high. They can weigh from about 700 to 1,000 kilograms (1,500 to 2,200 lb).



The rule seems to be that for an effective riding animal, at least as far as horses go, the mount should be around 15% of the animal's weight. At the size ranges we have here for horses, that suggests riders between 140 and 330 lbs - basically the human range.



Generally, the more weight an animal carries as a pack or a rider, the more work it has to do, the slower it goes or the faster it tires. If you have a pony that can be ridden, but only for short distances, then you'll end up walking most of the time.


Apply this rule to Caribou, and:

The females usually measure 162–205 cm (64–81 in) in length and weigh 80–120 kg (180–260 lb)[15] The males (or "bulls") are typically larger (although the extent to which varies in the different subspecies), measuring 180–214 cm (71–84 in) in length and usually weighing 159–182 kg (350–400 lb),[15] though exceptionally large males have weighed as much as 318 kg (700 lb).[15] Shoulder height typically measure from 85 to 150 cm (33 to 59 in), and the tail is 14 to 20 cm (5.5 to 7.9 in) long.

From our friend, Wikipedia. Lets assume that the Thule are small people, weighing between 110 and 150 lbs.

Now, apply that 15% rule, and you'll get riders for females of an average weight of 27 lbs to 39 lbs. Males would support riders of 52 to 60 lbs, and really exceptionally large males could maybe take a rider of 105. That doesn't seem very viable, does it.

But Caribou seem to have a much greater load bearing capacity than horses. Caribou for packs seem to beat everything but dogs. So let's assume a load bearing ability 50% or more greater than horses. 22.5%. Hell let's round it up to 25%.

At that rate, it starts to become almost viable. Female carriers would still be too small - 45 to 65 lbs. Males would be almost there - 85 to 100 lbs. Exeptionally large males would maybe be able to carry 175, though.

So, how does this all work. It seems to me that exceptionally large animals in nature are just that - exceptional. Say one in ten, or one in twenty. They're the big ass end of the bell curve.

So under normal circumstances, I'd expect the domesticated population to be no larger than the wild population. Generally in fact, the rule is that domesticates in most cases are smaller than the wild forms. But let's go with that equivalency.

This means that in the normal course, opportunities to find a caribou big enough to ride safely and comfortably are going to be relatively rare. One animal in ten or twenty, and when you factor in all the scruff factors, maybe one in forty or one in fifty.

That really makes it hard for any population which is accessing wild strains, or strains indistinguishable from wild, to have a decent cavalry.

So maybe the Thule grow them bigger? Entirely possible. We grew our horses bigger. There's a trade off, of course. Bigger animals eat more, which counts in the thin environment of the north. There's no particular advantage to big animals for carrying packs. Its just a matter of more and fewer animals and how you spread the weight.

There might be a cumulative advantage to bigger animals for dragging plows. So there might be some incentive to 'breed bigger' in the agricultural areas, particularly the longest settled and established agricultural areas. You might get animals going 600 lbs or more regularly, say instead of one in twenty, one in five or one in three.

If riding starts to develop as a regular or somewhat common thing, rather than as an unusual or freakish activity, then that's the population that will most likely be ridden, and subject to further selective breeding for riding.

In outlying areas, among herdsmen, riding may be reserved to a headman, or a couple of high ranking men. In the densely populated areas, there will be enough large animals to sustain a regular mounted force or cavalry, and both the incentive and breeding stock wealth to 'breed big.'

For these reasons, I don't think Caribou riding will make it south. The sorts of Caribou that southern peoples will encounter will tend to be too small.

Again, give it another five hundred or eight hundred years, until Bred-Big stock is so common it can end up in the hands of southern peoples. But we don't have that kind of time. History is about to happen to us.
 

However, riding appears to somewhat common among Eurasian reindeer herders. I am pretty sure it happens among the Sami, and it seems that they hadn't started domesticating reindeers that much earlier than Thule AFAIK. Are Eurasian reindeers significantly bigger than American Caribou?
 
However, riding appears to somewhat common among Eurasian reindeer herders. I am pretty sure it happens among the Sami, and it seems that they hadn't started domesticating reindeers that much earlier than Thule AFAIK. Are Eurasian reindeers significantly bigger than American Caribou?

It occurs, certainly, and frequently enough to be culturally recognzied and accepted. But I don't know how common it is. I've searched before and I don't find many links to assess frequency. It appears to be an occasional thing, confined to larger animals.

The Tsaatan are a people living in the Mongolian Taiga in the province (aimag) of Hovsgol in the north-west of Montolia. .....
A people belonging to reindeer and reindeer belonging to and shaping a people and their culture. They live a nomadic lifestyle shaped for the needs of their animals. They migrate up to ten times a year, moving on to better grazing for the reindeer.
Many parts of the Mongolian Taiga cannot be reached by a horse, let alone a car, only on foot or riding a reindeer. Unlike the Scandinavian reindeer, some of the Tsaa are trained to carry a rider. The Tsaatan use a horse saddle, which they tie in a special way around the belly and the neck of the reindeer. Riding on a reindeer is a constant battle to maintain balance. If you move too far to either side, the saddle will turn round and you find yourself lying on the earth wondering what has happened.

http://www.thelongridersguild.com/landerer-reindeer.htm
 
Fair enough, I suppose, although I think the issue of the Thule not exploring down Sakhalin and Hokkaido should be addressed. I can think of ways to explain a lack of island-hopping, the simplest being that boat technology from Greenland doesn't make it to Alaska.

Well, not much in the way of boat technology from Greenland goes anywhere. It's the idea of wooden boats, and particularly the idea of boats made from pieces of wood held together.

On the Haida and Tlingit side of the continent, you have cultures that can make some pretty big and impressive dugouts. So conceivably, you can have some fairly substantial coastal boats making it to the Siberian coast.

But the question is, why would they go all the way down to Sakhalin and Hokkaido. They've pushed into Siberia, but look who they're facing: The Chukchi, the Koryak, the Italmen. These are the northern peoples, they're tough, and they're hostile, and they're in flux because they've all been pushed down on top of one another.

Even hopping along the coast, the Thule would have to pass along a thousand miles of people who are at very best dire competitors, or bitter rivals, or simply: Enemy.

I don't see a lot of strong motivation to go actually.

Now, it's possible that they might bypass most of the hostiles, boating down, meeting people who would be intrigued enough by strangers not to kill on site. That's basically how the Russians worked it on the Italmen.

But there's still the question of motivation. I know it's tipping the hat, but here goes. The Chukchi, Koryak and Yakut are all frigging tough. And they've all got packages that worked almost as good as the Thule. In OTL their packages were actually significantly better, except in the most barren and worthless areas. That's why the Yupik (Thule who went west in OTL) survived on the edges of Siberia but didn't make much progress.

In ATL the package the Thule carry into Siberia is a hell of a lot better. Good enough to push, and push hard. But it ain't going to be easy. The Siberian Thule are going to be the most warlike, most vicious, most socially and tightly networked of the Thule, because they're going to be fighting their way through some real tough bastards. It's why they're going to be such an unpleasant surprise for the Russians.

As I said a long while back, in the later period, after 1500, there may be some occasional sea contact with Japan, Korea and Manchuria, and indirectly through that to China... But it's not going to amount to much.

What the 'Oriental' cultures will notice is 'hey, there's another tribe of ripe bastards among the various tribes of ripe bastards that populate the far north. How long have they been up there? A few thousand years? They do seem to be kicking ass somewhat. It's hard to tell, and and its not very important."

What the Thule might note is "Hey, there's kingdoms and shit way down south, but its too far to make any real difference to us."

I really don't think I can pull off another major cultural interchange event on the scale of the Norse interchange. I mean that was was pushing the boundaries.

It's flattering to receive these ideas and suggestions, and I feel like a bastard sometimes for saying 'No, no, no." I actually do take all of them very seriously and if I can work something in, I will.

But fundamentally, I think people can start to overlook how colossally implausible this timeline is. I mean - we're talking an agricultural civilization emerging in the Arctic circle! I'm pleased by the appreciation, but I have to say, its an uphill battle to make it seem plausible.

And I've dragged them along incredibly fast - I mean, in five or six hundred years, we've gone from stone age hunter gatherers to a coalescing agricultural early iron age civilization that's acquired a suite of domestic animals that puts a lot of civilizations to shame. Geez, another six hundred years, they'll have their own spaceports (and no, I don't intend to go there).
 
For these reasons, I don't think Caribou riding will make it south. The sorts of Caribou that southern peoples will encounter will tend to be too small.

Sorry, this is my fault for skipping a big chunk of the middle of this timeline. So the Thule don't ride caribou, but harness them to plows? Chariots? Sledges? And that equipment doesn't make it to southern tribes, even if the idea of using animal power does?

If you're going to be a jerk (a huge jerk!) and not let them ride moose :)
I suppose the only butterfly that could come out of this is that people around OTL Maine would be faster to adopt horses, since they'd see the advantage to riding. But I don't know whether the Popham colonists even brought horses with them.
 
It's flattering to receive these ideas and suggestions, and I feel like a bastard sometimes for saying 'No, no, no." I actually do take all of them very seriously and if I can work something in, I will.

Don't apologize. It's easy for me to make all kinds of wild suggestions, and I'm not sad to see them shot down.

Which doesn't mean I'm not going to push more :)
You've convinced me about mainland Asia, but island-hopping to Hokkaido, I think, is still on the table.

Given the level of combat on the Asian mainland, setting up supply lines from Alaska to Asia through the islands makes a lot of sense. Especially given the richness of many of those islands in terms of wood, meat, and furs.

Starting at the southern tip of Kamchatka (which the Thule control, right? if they don't that's a monkey wrench in my plan), the Thule have every reason to settle Paramushir with its access to seal and sea-otter populations. The native Ainu are a pushover, and escape by boat to the southern Kuril Islands, drawing the Thule after them.

Establishing resupply settlements on the Kurils sets the Thule up well for Northern Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and thus the whole coast of the sea of Okhotsk. With dugout canoes, the Thule will have both a naval advantage over the Chukchi AND a pressing demand for timber, which they will find on Hokkaido and Sakhalin.
 
Sorry, this is my fault for skipping a big chunk of the middle of this timeline. So the Thule don't ride caribou, but harness them to plows? Chariots? Sledges? And that equipment doesn't make it to southern tribes, even if the idea of using animal power does?

Sleds, basically versions of dog sleds. Also used as pack animals. And of course, used as draft animals in Thule agriculture. Plows, and there's a sort of rig that the Thule use to build up mounds. Riding will come later. It starts to show up around 1450, and starts to become widespread by about 1500-1525. Cavalry, and a distinct riders breed is about 1600.

But then, in OTL, horse riding was a fairly late development in the domestication of horses.

Do the Southern tribes adopt domesticated caribou? Mostly no. The lifestyles of the Cree and many of the Dene to the south were seasonal hunter/gatherers. They moved around during the year, from one good food source to the next. The Bush was often quite impassable so the main channels of transport and communication were rivers.

To adopt domesticated Caribou and engage in herding practices would involve opportunity costs. You'd have to give up portions of your lifestyle, and hope the return on investment would make up for it. My impression is that it would be a hard shift to make.

Bottom line is that the cultures to the south of the Thule are probably not well positioned to adopt domesticated Caribou as a lifestyle choice.

If you're going to be a jerk (a huge jerk!) and not let them ride moose :)

Oh don't pout. If you're really nice, I'll maybe save the Stellar's Sea Cow for you as a really avant garde Thule domesticate.

I gave some thought to Wrangel Island Mammoths, but they vanished 3700 years ago, roughly 3200 years too early to do anything about.

The Thule hybrid societies that are doing arrowhead and cattail will domesticate the Moose. But it's going to be a relatively late development, will not include riding, and that domestication may not survive the waves of Euro-diseases decimating the societies in that region.


I suppose the only butterfly that could come out of this is that people around OTL Maine would be faster to adopt horses, since they'd see the advantage to riding. But I don't know whether the Popham colonists even brought horses with them.

But the Thule don't come within a thousand miles of Maine. There's a huge expanse of Canada and Canadian Bush before the subarctic comes about, much less the arctic.
 
Don't apologize. It's easy for me to make all kinds of wild suggestions, and I'm not sad to see them shot down.

Which doesn't mean I'm not going to push more :)

Some of them may work.

You've convinced me about mainland Asia, but island-hopping to Hokkaido, I think, is still on the table.

Given the level of combat on the Asian mainland, setting up supply lines from Alaska to Asia through the islands makes a lot of sense. Especially given the richness of many of those islands in terms of wood, meat, and furs.

Late period maybe, after 1550, maybe after 1650

Starting at the southern tip of Kamchatka (which the Thule control, right? if they don't that's a monkey wrench in my plan),

Nope. In OTL, if I recall, Kamchatka is occupied by Koryuk in the north, and Italmen in the south. When the Thule are pushing hard, the Chukchi are driven south into Koryuk lands. Koryuk are driven south, pushing into Kamchatka. The increased Koryuk population expands southward pushing the Italmen who have nowhere to go. Lots of conflict and warfare up and down Kamchatka.

It's not clear to me how close the Thule get to Kamchatka. They might not come near it. Or they might push into the northern part of the peninsula, leaving a fractious mixture of Chukchi, Koryuk and Italmen ranged against them in tightly packed layers. No one has anywhere to go.

the Thule have every reason to settle Paramushir with its access to seal and sea-otter populations. The native Ainu are a pushover, and escape by boat to the southern Kuril Islands, drawing the Thule after them.

Establishing resupply settlements on the Kurils sets the Thule up well for Northern Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and thus the whole coast of the sea of Okhotsk. With dugout canoes, the Thule will have both a naval advantage over the Chukchi AND a pressing demand for timber, which they will find on Hokkaido and Sakhalin.

I can see you've put some thought into this. But I'm not sure it will work out.
 
THIS IS FALECIUS EXCELLENT MAP (although I'd probably date it to somewhere between 1500-1550, on the basis of the spread of sheep subculture and developments in the Fraser Valley). It's not quite perfect, but it's damned close. It should provide a fairly good idea of the state of the Siberian Thule.

Thule%20cultures.gif
 
I'm sorry DValdron, but there's nothing you can do now. The Great Thulo-Japanese war has begun!
sea_cower_before_me__by_bensen_daniel-d5hjsm0.jpg

From The Tale of Matsumae
Translated by Hellen McManatee
Tampa Bay University Press
Department of East Asian, Arctic, and Sirenian Studies.

"On the Second Day of the Ninth Month of the same year, Lord Kaigyuu ni Koroshita of the Matsumae went with his retainers to the Bay to see for himself the enemy that massed there. He wore a red brocade hitatare, a suit of green-laced armor, a horned helmet, and armed himself with a gilt bronze-fitted sword, a quiver containing arrows fledged with black0banded eagle feathers, and a rattan-wrapped bow, and had mounted a white-dabbled reddish horse with a gold-edged saddle.
"Well matched!" He shouted like thunder at the gathered enemy, "you see before you the most feared men in all Japan!"
The enemy made no answer.
Enraged, Lord Kaigyuu ni Koroshita brandished his bronze-fitted sword. and drove his horse into the surging surf. White foam danced around his feet. "Who will come and engage in duels with us? We are---"
And no more was heard from Lord Kaigyuu ni Koroshita.
Sea Cowwar before my might!
 
I'm sorry I don't know what came over me.

In all seriousness. What if that movement of people spills off Kamchatka onto the islands in the sea of Okhtosk?
Also, I would like to know more about the state of the art of Thule navies. A lot of invasions happen from the coasts inland. The Thule might not be only attacking Kamchatka from the north, but from the east as well.
 
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