Kreigsmarine

[Saphroneth]

Hello,

Given the set of constraints Germany had to face - basically the treaties, the economic possibilities and the fact that the Kriegsmarine would always be third after the Heer and Luftwaffe - I've long wondered whether the best way wouldn't have been to think 'outside the box'.

What I mean is that, to fight the French, the Navy would be of little use (see 1870, 1914-18). To fight the Soviets, you don't need capital ships. And a naval race with UK cannot be won in any future foreseeable from 1933.
Thus heavy units are shiny but of little use.

On the other hand, building what is now known as "Green-water navy" could perhaps maximize the value of the Kriegsmarine - with some emphasis on merchant raiders/Pocket battleships/subs if UK is to be the focus.
Such a fleet of light units can be used in the Baltic and North Sea.

Even if "green-water navy" is a post-ww2 concept, the ideas of the French "Jeune Ecole" of the 1880-90s could be a reference.

It's not a way to tell that is would necessarily have been a good idea, but getting out of the classical conundrum may be interesting.

I have written some years ago a sketch of a navy and doctrine based on those ideas.
I'm away from my notes right now but I'll try to find them.

Basically, it's a lot of destroyer-sized ships, fast minelayers, MTBs, with something akin to a coastal command (yes, I know, GÖring wouldn't agree) for the North Sea and Baltic.
And pocket battleships, merchant raiders, seaplane tenders for distant ops.
(can't remember my ideas on subs, however)

It's an occasionally raised idea, yes - there's a problem, though.
If it bears much resemblance to Jeune Ecole, then the RN is going to basically panic-build...


And yeah, CVs are kind of a grey area.

 

[Obfuscated]

Is your repeated goof of writing "Kreigsmarine" (it should be "Kriegsmarine") just another expression of your continueing expression of disapproval of KM-wanks ?

 

[Gudestein]

OK, I opened my big mouth so I guess I may as well have a run at it.

1933 Program
Purchase Nordeutcher Line liner under construction as Scharnhorst, convert to large escort aircraft carrier of 18,500 tons, commission 1935 to gain aviation experience.
.

This is a splendid idea if one really wants the KM to go this way. What liner are we talking about? Any other insights of feasibility? A lot of civilian ships were considered for carrier conversions, but most were later cancelled for practical reasons.

 

[johnboy]

This is a splendid idea if one really wants the KM to go this way. What liner are we talking about? Any other insights of feasibility? A lot of civilian ships were considered for carrier conversions, but most were later cancelled for practical reasons.

Look up Japanese escort carrier Shinyo on Wiki. The Scharnhorst had a different power plant to her two sisters, unfortunately more high pressure steam stuff the Germans seemed to like. If converted by the Germans she would gain an island, but it is possible to have a conversion done by mid to late 1935. You can then use some of the knowledge gained if you lay a carrier of your own down, particularly if it's a roomier design that you can make some changes to during construction. It's not going to be a war winner, but could be a right pain in the ass to Arctic convoys if accompanied by BB's or CA's.

 

[mescal]

What liner are we talking about? Any other insights of feasibility?

She was the Norddeutsche Lloyd S.S. Scharnhorst.
OTL, she was trapped in Japan in september 1939, and the Japanese Navy converted her in an auxiliary carrier (Shinyo) after Midway.
She was sunk by an US sub in 1944.

Note that the Japanese already had in 1942 a knwo-how in conversions from civilian liner to carriers (Junyo).
I'm unsure how the Germans without prior CV experience would have fared, but as a test project, she might have been acceptable.

 

[Gudestein]

She was the Norddeutsche Lloyd S.S. Scharnhorst.
OTL, she was trapped in Japan in september 1939, and the Japanese Navy converted her in an auxiliary carrier (Shinyo) after Midway.
She was sunk by an US sub in 1944.

Note that the Japanese already had in 1942 a knwo-how in conversions from civilian liner to carriers (Junyo).
I'm unsure how the Germans without prior CV experience would have fared, but as a test project, she might have been acceptable.

Interesting both points (yours and Johnboy), but I do see another difference following the actual decision. If the Germans decide to make a carrier conversion to make a fleet carrier in 1935, maybe they would conduct more than a few weeks of studies in Japan.
Basically, as soon as there are a long term plan, some of the drivers for the GZ oddities (and expected horrible performance) butterflies away.

 

[johnboy]

Interesting both points (yours and Johnboy), but I do see another difference following the actual decision. If the Germans decide to make a carrier conversion to make a fleet carrier in 1935, maybe they would conduct more than a few weeks of studies in Japan.
Basically, as soon as there are a long term plan, some of the drivers for the GZ oddities (and expected horrible performance) butterflies away.

You wont get rid of all your issues, however, it establishes much earlier that the KM will have it's own aircraft, hopefully taking some ownership away from fat Hermann. It then allows you to play with aircraft types.

It will not solve all your carrier problems for the next laid down CV, but will solve some. That is why I suggested a big design, which allows more "give" to remedy some of the mistakes that will still surely be made.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

they could sell torpedoes to KMT China and they don't work/well?

On this point there were discussions in place to sell the KMT Chinese coastal submarines and torpedoes. Now if this goes ahead and we have the ubiquitous advisers the impact of faults in doctrine and torpedo may become apparent. The question would be the speed that they do noting the small scale of submarines likely to be used by the KMT Navy.

 

[Zheng He]

I agree that instead of carriers you need to concentrate on floatplanes for sea based aviation - a combination of tenders, seaplane carriers, and floatplanes operating off of the larger surface ships. That's cheaper, more flexible (for what they need), and a lot easier for them to learn. It's also not as threatening. Part of that mix should be a decent floatplane fighter (like the floatplane Zero). That could protect the ships from enemy scouts and even small scale raids.

 

[Detlef]

Alright, there has been a lot of talk lately about the Kreigmarine and their gear and what would be the best fleet build for them.

<Snip>

Therefore, assuming they do build larger ships, what would be good programs? Now lets bear in mind that virtually no changes are possible to OTL before the 22 March 1933 Enabling Act and that two other things dominate the landscape. It is not possible to have enormous naval budgets in the 1933 or 1934 program as Hindenburg was still alive and Hitler needed to appease the Reichswehr, which wanted as much coin as possible for itself at the expense of the navy. That is not to say a small increase is not possible, just not "I'll lay down 6 battleships in 1934". Neither the guns, the designs or the armour plate were ready then in any case. The other factor is the 1935 Anglo-German Naval Treaty, limiting Germany to 35% of British tonnage. ie until the expiration of the Washington Treaty 184,000 tons Capital ships, 47,000 tons aircraft carriers, 52,500 tons CA's, 67,500 CL, 52,500 tons DD, 20,250 SS. You cannot exceed those figures in terms of ships laid down before end 1936 as at that stage Hitler's Germany was committed to it so they ould rebuild in other areas without too much British suspicion, although you can, of course, lie about tonnage of designs already laid...

<Snip>

In terms of "modern" ships, 30,000 tons of "capital ship" tonnage is already used on the three Deutschlands. Also, 44,600 tons are used of light cruiser tonnage with the Emden, Konigsberg Class and Leipzig/Nurnberg.

THis being the case, draw up the best possible 1933(laid 1934), 1934(laid 1935), 1935(laid 1936, 1936(laid 1937) programs. In terms of a 1937(laid 1938) and 1938(laid 1939) order anything you want, although it can be assumed that any large ships laid 1939 would be immediately cancelled September 1939.

Have at it....

Does "best possible plans" mean including hindsight? Almost impossible to ignore for us since we´re right now in 2014?

If so:

Capital ships (184,000 tons):

• 30,000 tons already used by the 3 "Deutschland" class pocket battleships
• 4 x Gneisenau class battle-cruisers with an official tonnage of 26,000 tons = 104,000 tons
• Leaving 50,000 tons for some 4 improved 15,000 tons (officially 12,500 tons) pocket battleships

Aircraft carriers (47,000 tons):

• German naval officers visited American, British and Japanese aircraft carriers before WW2. IIRC the Weimar Republic even had plans to build an aircraft carrier in the late 1920s/early 1930s. Just why did the German navy disregard that knowledge to approve the Graf Zeppelin atrocity?
• Grab a fast passenger ship / merchant ship in 1933/34 and convert it to a training light aircraft carrier.
• In 1936/37 start building 4 light aircraft carriers of 13,000 tons with 30-40 airplanes each.

Heavy cruisers (52,500 tons):

• Built 3 of them = 30,000 tons
• As I understand the Anglo-German Naval Treaty, tonnage can be moved from surface ships to submarines as long as the submarine tonnage doesn´t surpass 100% of the British one? If true, that would move 22,500 tons to the German submarine branch.

Light cruisers (67,500 tons):

• 44,600 tons are already used.
• That leaves 22,900 tons.
• Definitely 3 new light cruisers of 8,000 tons

Destroyers (52,500 tons):

• You could build 35 x 1,500 ton destroyers so the same number of Elbing class torpedo boats might be possible? However the Elbing class ships had a standard tonnage of 1,300 tons? So that would give you 40 ships.
  Or 20 x Elbing class torpedo boats and 18 x 1,500 ton destroyers?

Submarines (20,250 tons):

• Add 22,500 tons from the heavy cruiser branch? (= 42,740 tons)
• 30 type II submarines x 300 tons = 9,000 tons
• 31 type VII x 750 tons = 23,250 tons
• 11 type IX x 1,000 tons = 11,000 tons

Minor war vessels (London Conference of 1936):

• More than 100 tons, less than 2,000 tons
• Mount a gun not exceeding 6.1 inches (155 mm)
• No torpedo tubes
• a speed exceeding 20 knots

Meaning that Germany would be free to build as many of these vessels as they like. Should be more than good enough for escort duty especially in the Baltic Sea (anti-air and anti-submarine).

Auxiliary vessels (London Conference of 1936):

• More than 100 tons
• Mount a gun not exceeding 6.1 inches (155 mm), no more than 8 guns with a calibre exceeding 3 inches (76 mm)
• No torpedo tubes
• a speed exceeding 28 knots
• No armor protection
• No more than two aircraft launching apparatus

So fleet supply ships are perfectly fine.
Likewise armed merchant cruisers (AMC).

Small craft (not more than 100 tons):

• Not regulated either.

So the building of E-boats would be perfectly alright.

(Naval air force:

• Something the navy and submarines desperately needed. But unless you remove Goering that won´t change.)

Now if all these plans were realized you´d have a slightly larger submarine force than in OTL. In a best case scenario you might even had a dedicated naval air arm.
You might have 2-4 capital ships requiring the attention of 4-8 allied capital ships. You might also have 1-4 task forces with an improved pocket battleship, a light carrier, a light cruiser and maybe a supply ship. Maybe.

What I´m saying is that up to 1938/39 the British Empire wasn´t focused entirely on Nazi Germany. There was Japan to watch, Italy and maybe even the USA? So some of these plans might make sense?
Probably not war deciding - no one wants the Nazis to win - but it might make things more difficult for the Allies?

 

[gaijin]

Interesting both points (yours and Johnboy), but I do see another difference following the actual decision. If the Germans decide to make a carrier conversion to make a fleet carrier in 1935, maybe they would conduct more than a few weeks of studies in Japan.
Basically, as soon as there are a long term plan, some of the drivers for the GZ oddities (and expected horrible performance) butterflies away.

Hmmmm, am I the only one who smells a timeline coming up in which a carrier equipped Kriegsmarine, despite overwhelming odds, through pluck, sheer unbelievable luck, and British stupidity, Forest-gumps its way to victory???

 

[Gudestein]

Hmmmm, am I the only one who smells a timeline coming up in which a carrier equipped Kriegsmarine, despite overwhelming odds, through pluck, sheer unbelievable luck, and British stupidity, Forest-gumps its way to victory???

Maybe you could write it first

 

[jsb]

OK my try at a fleet (you may sadly not consider it much fun).

Capital ships (184,000 tons):

OTL- 30,000 tons already used by the 3 "Deutschland" class pocket battleships
Build - 2 x Gneisenau class battle-cruisers with an official tonnage of 35,000 tons (40,000t as built, a bit faster, more range and they are fitted for but not with 6x15 inch guns) = 70,000 tons Leaving 84,000 tons just to look nice to the British (wouldn’t want them getting worried about a new arms race would we ).

Aircraft carriers (47,000 tons): Ignored and not used (that or used to hid some big CA hulls ?)

Heavy cruisers (52,500 tons): Built 5 of them = 50,000 tons (well actually 70,000t but nobody is measuring are they)

Light cruisers (67,500 tons): 44,600 tons are already used. That leaves 22,900 tons. 2 new light cruisers of 10,000 tons =20,000t (actually repeat CAs with 8 inch guns )

Destroyers (52,500 tons): 40 x 1,500 ton destroyers (with no pretensions of long range/high temp power plants, using 128mm guns)

Submarines (20,250 tons):

(f) In the matter of submarines, however, Germany, while not exceeding the ratio of 35:100 in respect of total tonnage, shall have the right to possess a submarine tonnage equal to the total submarine tonnage possessed by the Members of the British Commonwealth of Nations. The German Government, however, undertake that, except in the circumstances indicated in the immediately following sentence, Germany's submarine tonnage shall not exceed 45% of the total of that possessed by the Members of the British Commonwealth of Nations. The German Government reserve the right, in the event of a situation arising which in their opinion makes it necessary for Germany to avail herself of her right to a percentage of submarine tonnage exceeding the 45% abovementioned, to give notice to this effect to His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and agree that the matter shall be the subject of friendly discussion before the German Government exercise that right.)

20,250 tons=35% I make 45%=26,035t
30 type II submarines x 300 tons = 9,000 tons
10 type VII x 750 tons = 10,000 tons
5 type IX x 1,000 tons = 5,000 tons
Total = 24,000t not sure how far I can push this with the RN (can I say they are mostly small Subs for coastal defence ?) (maybe I will have to not build them to early to scare the RN so probably not finishing till 39, or some can just be a pile of parts on the dock side ....)

Minor war vessels & Small craft : Not regulated either.

S boats X lots these are even less threatening to he RN than Subs so make lots of them.

Auxiliary vessels :

Fleet supply & armed merchant cruisers & fast tankers build some and get them ready to spread around the world for the first year or so.

Not sure my fleet is that fun but should not do any worse than OTL fleet ? (not that that’s really a good thing)

JSB

 

[vizzer]

You wont get rid of all your issues, however, it establishes much earlier that the KM will have it's own aircraft, hopefully taking some ownership away from fat Hermann. It then allows you to play with aircraft types.

What about going the other way?
The Luftwaffe already has ground troops & later tanks so why not ships?
Maybe Fat Hermann goes 'If it flies it belongs to me & what it flies from as well!'
It also gives him a chance to 'rob' the KM budget to pay for it.

 

[Saphroneth]

What about going the other way?
The Luftwaffe already has ground troops & later tanks so why not ships?
Maybe Fat Hermann goes 'If it flies it belongs to me & what it flies from as well!'
It also gives him a chance to 'rob' the KM budget to pay for it.

Tongue firmly in cheek...

The Graf Zepp is used as a giant cooking oven to make cakes for the fat man.

 

[vizzer]

Tongue firmly in cheek...

The Graf Zepp is used as a giant cooking oven to make cakes for the fat man.

Could this be regarded as an upgrade for the KM?

 

[Simreeve]

So fleet supply ships are perfectly fine.

Except that they start the other powers wondering just where, in the absence of German colonies, that fleet is now intended to operate...

 

[vizzer]

Except that they start the other powers wondering just where, in the absence of German colonies, that fleet is now intended to operate...

Perhaps as part of a state shipping line designed to earn/save foreign currency. But designed for ease of conversion to supply vessels in the event of war.