King Tosti?

WI, instead of getting shpwrecked in Normandy in 1064. Harold Godwinsson had been drowned? Presumably that leaves his brother Tosti (or Tostig or whatever) as head of the House of Godwin.

Does Tosti stay in Northummbria or resign to become Earl of Wessex? If so, who is lkely to get Northumbria?

Does he become King in 1066, as Harold did OTL? And if so, how does 1066 pan out? Does Harald of Norway still put in a bid for rhe throne, and if so does Stamford Bridge go differently? If things ther stay as OTL, does Tosti do any better against the Normans than his brother did? Thoughts?
 
Very interesting WI @Mikestone8 !

My tuppence:

Does Tosti stay in Northummbria or resign to become Earl of Wessex?
The first thing to note is that earldoms are in the gift of the king.
Tostig seems to have been the Confessor’s favourite Godwineson. As such (and because he is now the eldest surviving Godwineson) he is most likely to be confirmed as the new Earl of Wessex. And in doing so, relinquish control of Northumbria.
If so, who is lkely to get Northumbria?
Potential new Earls of Northumbria.
Waltheof is definitely too young... Is Morcar too young at this point?
Do Gyrth or Leofwine swap out?
Does Tostig advocate for his ‘deputy’ Copsi to takeover de jure?
What of the House of Bamburgh?
Here things start to become a little complicated – so much so that before the question, how does 1066 pan out, can be asked, one must answer how does 1065 pan out?
Harold’s boat trip takes place sometime after August 5, 1064 (ie death of Gruffyd and end of Welsh campaign) but when exactly? Does Tostig taking up Wessex butterfly away the assassination of Gospatric (eldest surviving member of Bamburgh) at the Xmas 1064 witan? This assassination OTL was the final straw for the Northumbrians who revolted against Tostig’s misrule in October 1065.
Assuming Gospatric survives (regardless of whether he receives Northumbria), it is just possible the disturbances of the Northumbrian revolt are avoided. In turn this means it is more likely for the Confessor to live beyond January 1066 which means the question of succession is delayed, which in turn affects the possible actions of William of Normandy and Harold of Norway.
Or not. Just maybe Tostig, whether Earl of Northumbria or Wessex, continues to alienate those he governs and a revolt still happens. This time however Tostig has the ear of the King and civil war ensues...
 
Does Tostig taking up Wessex butterfly away the assassination of Gospatric (eldest surviving member of Bamburgh) at the Xmas 1064 witan? This assassination OTL was the final straw for the Northumbrians who revolted against Tostig’s misrule in October 1065.

According to Walker, an equally important factor was his attempt to increase Northumbrian taxes to the samelevel as in the rest of England (hitherto they had been lower). But he did it only after ten years on the job, when his position semed secure. A new and untriesEarl might well not risk it.

One other thing. OTL Harold claimed that Edward named him heir on his deathbed. Maybe true, maybe not, but I imagine many were suspicious. OTOH a similar claim by Tosti would be far more credible. Might strengthen his support.

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The first thing to note is that earldoms are in the gift of the king.
Tostig seems to have been the Confessor’s favourite Godwineson. As such (and because he is now the eldest surviving Godwineson) he is most likely to be confirmed as the new Earl of Wessex. And in doing so, relinquish control of Northumbria.

Agreed. In fact on further thought almost certain.

Wessex is far too valuable for Tosti to let it pass out of his family (and as the son and brother of the last two earls he would see it as his "natural" right).

And if he declines, the obvious alternative would be one of his younger brothers, probably Gyrth. From what I can gather, Tosti chafed a bit even about being second fiddle to his "elder" brother, so one can just imagine how he'd feel at being overshadowed by one of his *juniors*. I wouldn't want to be standing anywhere near him when that was suggested.

About the oonly relative he just *might* tolerate would be his brother-in-law, Count Baldwin V of Flanders, or one of the latter's sons. But that is a *really* outside chance.
 
As you will see from my reply, I’ve spent some time cogitating on this WI. I’m not wedded to the conclusions I draw, especially as I’m sure I’ve neglected some factors that will affect the outcome… And I ask many more questions than I have answers for.
Anyhoo, enjoy another tuppence’s worth:

According to Walker, an equally important factor was his attempt to increase Northumbrian taxes to the samelevel as in the rest of England (hitherto they had been lower). But he did it only after ten years on the job, when his position semed secure.
For sure.
There were three main factors that intersected and overlapped to create the volatile situation in Northumbria in October 1065.
First: As incomplete as Domesday Book is, it shows quite clearly that Northumbria was the poorest of the big three earldoms by a considerable margin. Tostig’s income, via the earl’s third penny which no matter how zealously enforced, was always going to be limited. The (attempted) increase in Northumbrian taxes – from roughly 4d per carucate/hide to the same yield of 2s per hide/carucate in the rest of England – was always going to provoke a response. (My assumption is the difference in yield would have gone into Tostig’s pocket.) But did Tostig only attempt to raise taxes towards the end of his governance? His need for ‘cash’ – maintaining 200+ huscarls is not cheap – would have been obvious from day one.
Second: Tostig’s failure to defend the north against the Scot’s. No reprisal was undertaken for the loss of Cumbria c.1061.
Third: Antagonistic relations with Northumbrian aristocracy. Two leading thegns (Gamel and Ulf – who through blood and marriage were of Bamburgh) were murdered in Tostig’s hall at York in 1063. Which leads back to my point about the assassination of Cospatric being the final straw.

Although my earlier thoughts need to be tweaked in light of actors and agency – for example, while Hardraada had a claim to the throne of England, would he have pursued it without Tostig being in his ear?
I think it would be more accurate to say that Tostig was Edith’s favourite brother. And because she was the Confessor’s wife, that favouritism may have influenced the king’s ‘judgement’ about the various Godwinesons.
Cospatric’s assassination at the king’s Christmas court was planned by Edith because it was thought to benefit Tostig. Leaving aside the questions of How? And of Who? Lets look at Why?
Why would Cospatric’s assassination benefit Tostig? Pure speculation on my part but I think Tostig had so alienated the Northumbrian aristocracy, achieving the remarkable feat of uniting the Anglo-Danes of Yorkshire and Bernican rump of Bamburgh, that they had been planning since the murders of Gamel and Ulf to take some kind of action. The first step was to petition the king. Cospatric was about to lay bare before the king and witan the extent of Tostig’s misrule… So, would Tostig taking up Wessex and relinquishing Northumbria scupper Cospatric’s mission? Probably, which means he isn’t assassinated in December 1064 and the OTL Northumbrian revolt is delayed. Yes, delayed.
If so, who is lkely to get Northumbria?

Thanks to Tostig’s pre-eminence as the earl of Wessex, the new earl of Northumbria confirmed at the Christmas witan is his crony Copsi. While only a minor Yorkshire thegn, which would undoubtedly upset most of the greater families of Northumbria, his appointment has a certain logic in that being Tostig’s deputy he has a familiarity with the ‘workings’ of the earldom.
Is Copsi’s rule going to be any different to what Tostig’s was? Does his association with Tostig mean that he is viewed with suspicion, regardless of what he does? Just to pile speculation upon speculation upon speculation. The Northumbrians will get more of the same from Copsi so the question is, how long does he last? (As an aside, OTL, the Conqueror appointed Copsi to Northumbria in March 1067 – he lasted six weeks before being killed by Oswulf, the ranking scion of Bamburgh.) How much of a grace period does he get? And what form does the reaction against Copsi take?
I mentioned actors and agency but let’s put aside some hothead taking matters into their own hand and that the cooler heads ensure they will go with the plan previously agreed upon with regards to Tostig, that is, to petition the king. And for argument’s sake, we’ll give Copsi twelve months grace which means come December 1065, a delegation from Northumbria arrive at the Christmas witan. What happens now?
Does Edith intervene? Does Tostig intervene? His pride is on the line. Copsi is his man, his creation even. And if the delegation does speak, who knows what they will say? Will they talk of only Copsi’s misrule? Or will they speak of the previous earl as well? Worst case scenario the delegation is murdered out of hand before appearing before the witan – revolt will follow. The delegation speaks but their suit is rejected out of hand – revolt will likely follow.

If one accepts that the decline and eventual death of the Confessor came about because of the ‘result’ of the Northumbrian revolt, would any delay of said revolt benefit the Old English state? Mayhap if it allows an older Edgar atheling to succeed his great uncle.
OTOH, any revolt that does take place is likely to degenerate into civil war. A civil war that sees significant clashes given the personalities of the Confessor and Tostig. A civil war that leaves the Old English state in an even more perilous position than on the eve of the conquest OTL.
I cannot see Tostig becoming king due to a deathbed wish of the Confessor. Or why Tostig’s claim of such a wish would be more credible than Harold’s OTL – then again stranger things have happened. Such was Tostig’s personality I harbour doubts that Gyrth and/or Leofwine would support their elder brother when push comes to shove. Which leads to the question, would William’s conquest be easier ITTL?
 
I cannot see Tostig becoming king due to a deathbed wish of the Confessor. Or why Tostig’s claim of such a wish would be more credible than Harold’s OTL – then again stranger things have happened. Such was Tostig’s personality I harbour doubts that Gyrth and/or Leofwine would support their elder brother when push comes to shove. Which leads to the question, would William’s conquest be easier ITTL?

Well, considering that Halrada's invasion was in part inspired by Tostig asking him to support his claim to Northumbria, there's at least a chance that Tostig in this ATL won't be facing an invasion from Norway. And we've also removed a major part (but not all) of William's justification for invasion (Harold drowns and, as a result, isn't around to promise the crown to William. Or, if you believe he did no even do so in OTL, William doesn't even have the opportunity to claim it happened in the ATL). So, in an odd way, Tostig might actually have an easier time of holding the throne than Harold did. Note that I still expect some kind of invasions to happen - England is a rich prize and there's going to be a lot of competition for it. But William probably won't be getting Papal support in this ATL, without the incident of Harold washing up on his shores alive. And without Tostig there to encourage Harald, there's at least a chance he turns his attention elsewhere.
 
Well, considering that Halrada's invasion was in part inspired by Tostig asking him to support his claim to Northumbria, there's at least a chance that Tostig in this ATL won't be facing an invasion from Norway. And we've also removed a major part (but not all) of William's justification for invasion (Harold drowns and, as a result, isn't around to promise the crown to William. Or, if you believe he did no even do so in OTL, William doesn't even have the opportunity to claim it happened in the ATL). So, in an odd way, Tostig might actually have an easier time of holding the throne than Harold did. Note that I still expect some kind of invasions to happen - England is a rich prize and there's going to be a lot of competition for it. But William probably won't be getting Papal support in this ATL, without the incident of Harold washing up on his shores alive. And without Tostig there to encourage Harald, there's at least a chance he turns his attention elsewhere.

Agree totally. Add in the fact that Tostig could have some international support ie his brother-in-law Baldwin V of Flanders who might make some effort to curtail recruitment of Flemish mercenaries and thus the composition of William's army.
 
Thanks to Tostig’s pre-eminence as the earl of Wessex, the new earl of Northumbria confirmed at the Christmas witan is his crony Copsi. While only a minor Yorkshire thegn, which would undoubtedly upset most of the greater families of Northumbria, his appointment has a certain logic in that being Tostig’s deputy he has a familiarity with the ‘workings’ of the earldom.

Alternatively you might get a reshuffle, with Tostig's brother Gyrth taking over Northumbria, and passing East Anglia on to Leofwine. After all, the Godwinessons had achieved a very strong position, holding all the Earldoms except Mercia, and presumably Tostig [1] would be unwilling to lose that asvantage.

Not sure who would get Leofwine's Earldom. One possibility is that nobody does - that it is just partitioned between EA and Wessex. with maybe Bucks and Oxfordshire being given to Mercia as a bone tossed to Earl Edwin.

[1] BTW is there any concensus on whether "Tosti" or "Tostig" is more correct?
Add in the fact that Tostig could have some international support ie his brother-in-law Baldwin V of Flanders who might make some effort to curtail recruitment of Flemish mercenaries and thus the composition of William's army.
Indeed, with a sister as Queen of England and a daughter as Duchess of Normandy, he'd be in an embarrassing situation.

This Flemish connection could get quite interesting. If as has been suggested, King Edward lives another year or two, then he outlives Baldwin V, whose son Baldwin VI is Count. Offhand I haven't a clue what his attitude would be. Also, in 1066 B5 ceased to be Co-Regent of France as King Philip I came of age. If Philip thinks that William needs cuttting down to size, or at least containing, then WtC may have more pressing concerns than an Engllsh expedition.

In particular, there was a succession fight in Flanders after the death of B6 in 1071. Philip opposed the usurpation of Robert the Frisian, but was defeated. Could thiis dispute generate an Anglo-French alliance, which would certainly curb William a bit?

There as also another Flemish succession War in 1127. Of course this one may be butterflied TTL, but if it still occurs in some form, could we get a pesonal union between England and Flanders? Would the King of France oppose this, or might he welcome a "counterweight" to an over-mighty Duke of Normandy? Curiouse and curiouser.
 
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