I will echo other comments on Long, though my favourite depiction of him will always be IconOfEvil's "Dance with the Devil" CSA AAR. I definitely wish that the devs took some from that like they did with CA, but I suspect we'll see a "good" AUS route some time after TBW accepts Amerosul.
Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg
- Thread starter RiverDelta
- Start date
The AUS does have the rather deep hole to dig out of called allying with Pelley, the Silver Shirts & the KKK which implies also working with equally nasty groups like the Black Legion. The best they could ever hope for is a very dark shade of grey.
Disagree, a very dark hole doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option.
Besides, without wishing to be rude to the Devs, most of the most passionate of them are Syndies/Leftists IRL so it really shows when somehow the UoB isn't the awful place it should be due to the British Left apparently all deciding to become hard enough authoritarians to not even allow the bloody Liberals.
KR's very foundations make little sense and yet apparently wanting any light grey for the AUS (or the Carlists) is asking too much in terms of realism.
I see Long's path in the rework as light gray. He enacts policies that, while authoritarian, are at least objectively well-intentioned. I also see the good path for Carlist Spain as being, well, the Kingdom of Spain. Although I will say I'm attracted by some benevolent authoritarian Carlism, which it seems to be going for with reestablishing Fueros and such. Monarchies come off pretty well, though, if they aren't Showa Restoration Japan; Kyrill comes off as a benevolent Tsar, as does Vladimir; Wilhelm III looks like an adorably kindly old man; Karl seems like a stand up guy, as he was OTL; Imjust don't see the bias. I also don't see much of a leftist bias; KR doesn't say anything about atrocities, and I can imagine even the RadSoc guy's doing their fair share of bad stuff if they conquer Europe.
It's more in who gets reworked faster, and the KR background more than anything that would "ruin" it.
I don't mean bias in a negative sense here, more just that they are more drawn to it (Syndicalism) than saying this bias ruins KR.
I mean... there aren't a lot of shades of gray in working with the Klan or Pelley. People can point at that "end the poll tax" national focus in the reworked tree all they want, but you don't become the darling of the South in the 1930s or have a division literally called the "White Wizards" by having a good relationship with the African-American community.
Basically this.
KR in general has very few unambiguous villains, but Pelley, the Iron Guard, Göring, Savinkov, Showa Japan, Mosley, and Genghis Khan II are definitely monsters.
You mean the guy who outrights refuses to comprise with Curtis who purposely sabotages any negotiations between Reed and the Fed and who publicly declares the US to be a dead nation that Long? Yeah sure okay whatever floats your boat man.........
I think the most positive way you can describe Long would be Well-Intentionned Extremist if his concern about the poor is really genuine. That would give him a rather noble goal but the methods he goes on to accomplish it are basically the wrong ones.
If he's elected President in 1936, he will eventually resign and form the AUS because he isn't satisfied with what he's been given in terms of power (despite it being the fricking Presidence of the United States). If he's not elected, he will still use his vast influence and popularity to prove a nuisance and will eventually rebel unless Curtis approves of his assassination. That isn't really the best of methods to enact your policies, no matter how good hearted they are.
Then, as mentionned, there are the people he chose to ally with. Even if he gets the option to purge them later on, he still allies with people like Pelley to get support...
The point is though that you can have still keep a Democratic Japan in Kaiserreich with Hirohito as its head and it can be pretty benevolent. I know Hirohito's attitude in OTL WWII was pretty shady but in his early years he seemed to have no problem with Democracy and he apparently went with the militarisation of Japan and its expansionnist policies out of pragmatism and as a result of the political turmoil that engulfed Japan in the 1930s. In theory, if you have a Democratic Japan survive the turmoil of the 1930s, Hirohito wouldn't have to deal with the more shady parts of his OTL reign.
That said, if Japan goes Paternal Autocrat or National Populist...
If he's elected President in 1936, he will eventually resign and form the AUS because he isn't satisfied with what he's been given in terms of power (despite it being the fricking Presidence of the United States). If he's not elected, he will still use his vast influence and popularity to prove a nuisance and will eventually rebel unless Curtis approves of his assassination. That isn't really the best of methods to enact your policies, no matter how good hearted they are.
Then, as mentionned, there are the people he chose to ally with. Even if he gets the option to purge them later on, he still allies with people like Pelley to get support...
Technically Showa Japan covers every possible choices in the Japanese focus tree since Hirohito is never overthrown in any of them as far as I know. Which might change given that Vanilla has given Japan the possibility to go Communist with Waking the Tiger (though at quite a cost).
The point is though that you can have still keep a Democratic Japan in Kaiserreich with Hirohito as its head and it can be pretty benevolent. I know Hirohito's attitude in OTL WWII was pretty shady but in his early years he seemed to have no problem with Democracy and he apparently went with the militarisation of Japan and its expansionnist policies out of pragmatism and as a result of the political turmoil that engulfed Japan in the 1930s. In theory, if you have a Democratic Japan survive the turmoil of the 1930s, Hirohito wouldn't have to deal with the more shady parts of his OTL reign.
That said, if Japan goes Paternal Autocrat or National Populist...
The only evidence of working with the KKK are division names named the "Imperial Wizards" and such. That is incredibly light canon, especially when it flies in the face of Huey Long's historical rivalry with the Klan, and the fact that Coughlin is a Catholic priest and would similarly be their mortal foe. Division names are a joke and it is laughable to consider them more legit than focus trees and the like.
I don't really think too much about debates like this because canon is likely to change in upcoming reworks anyway, so who knows who will be the villain. Personally I favor letting everyone except you be the one at fault. Preserves the moral ambiguity, you see.
I don't really think too much about debates like this because canon is likely to change in upcoming reworks anyway, so who knows who will be the villain. Personally I favor letting everyone except you be the one at fault. Preserves the moral ambiguity, you see.
Its not incredibly light evidence when Pelley is an active part of his government & purging the Klan is part of the Long section of the AUS focus tree. Those things strongly suggest Long has allied with them. Long's America First Party is also explicitly described in-game as Far Right so you can't really claim it's just a few division names.
There’s also the fact that you don’t become the darling of the South in the 1930s without at least kowtowing to the Lost Cause and the white-dominant racial power structure. Yeah, IOTL maybe Long might hav me pushed for black rights in his own state where he had a huge amount of control and could affect voting codes, but the whole South? No.
It's not just limited to Division Names: the current AUS focus tree as a section that is basically a power struggle between Long and Pelley. If Long wins, he makes his vision come true. If Pelley wins, we get KKK AUS basically.
For Pelley to be able to challenge Long, he needs to have an incredible powerbase in the AUS as it is... And for the AUS to be a thing, Long needs to be involved. That's more than a stretch to thus say that Long and Pelley start as Allies during the Second Amercian Civil War, if not as early as the preperations for the 1936 election. It's most likely an alliance that started for purely pragmatic political reasons (Long's powerbase is the former CSA after all and Pelley's popularity there is high) and that will end later on but it exists.
I'm not sure they're going to rework the basics that much. I mean, the context leading to the 1936 election will globably stay the same.
The best way to know though would be to ask herkles since he works on the mod.
So getting away from the current argument over whether or not the AUS was maybe evil or puppy-kickingly evil earlier I posted about doing a multiplayer game that'd be a Syndie-wank. Now that the 1.53 patch is out and the stability issues have been sorted (just did an Italy playthrough and tested that thoroughly, also dear GODS were the Straits of Messina a bloody mess!) who would be interested, when would work and who is everyone's first choice? For the record the countries that need to have a player for this to work are the CSA, the Union of Britain, the Commune of France and the Bharatiya Commune. Anything beyond that is a bonus and someone doing the USSR is discouraged unless all the other possibilities (Italy, Australasia, Brazil and the CNT-FAI) are somehow filled.
Who is interested? @Worffan101 @RiverDelta @President Earl Warren ?
Who is interested? @Worffan101 @RiverDelta @President Earl Warren ?
Unfortunately my computer has decided to crap out and Hoi 4 is so laggy it's practiclly unplayable.
Okay so here's a problem when I was on my 2nd Italian Republic play through and I elected the Market Libreal party and progressed trhough the republic survives tree again I felt something was off so I looked through the IRs progress report and found this turns out the Itlian Republics focus tree has gone from this:
to This:
There is also a path for an Austrian Monarchy that I'm showing but what happened to the different focus trees? And yes I know there is a new feature that lets you hide parts of the focus tree but even after I let the Soc Cons or MarLibs in power so whats up with that?
to This:
There is also a path for an Austrian Monarchy that I'm showing but what happened to the different focus trees? And yes I know there is a new feature that lets you hide parts of the focus tree but even after I let the Soc Cons or MarLibs in power so whats up with that?
So somethings to clear up/clarify about Huey Long and the US Rework.
First Long's ideology is a bit weird. On one hand he is rather social democrat in a lot of ways, in others rather authoritarian. He is also extremely ambitious and power-hungry. When you factor in that even in OTL he was willing to make alliances with some pretty shady right wing figures, this all is why he is going to become Authoritarian Democrat come the US rework. His revamped section of the focus tree will better explain how he works and operates. Also Long resigning as president is a bug related to legacy code. the US rework will fix that as Big Mac will kick him out just as he does with Reed, sparking his revolt.
As for his alliance with Pelley. They hate each other and know all to well that the other despises them. However both have ambitious plans and currently tolerate each other and look the other way. Long doesn't like Pelley or his Silver Legion, but recognizes that if he wishes to be elected president he needs to use them to his advantage.
Also there will be changes to the 1936 election. Not saying what exactly atm, it will be revealed in an upcoming PR. but there will be changes.
Hopefully this clarifies things for people.
First Long's ideology is a bit weird. On one hand he is rather social democrat in a lot of ways, in others rather authoritarian. He is also extremely ambitious and power-hungry. When you factor in that even in OTL he was willing to make alliances with some pretty shady right wing figures, this all is why he is going to become Authoritarian Democrat come the US rework. His revamped section of the focus tree will better explain how he works and operates. Also Long resigning as president is a bug related to legacy code. the US rework will fix that as Big Mac will kick him out just as he does with Reed, sparking his revolt.
As for his alliance with Pelley. They hate each other and know all to well that the other despises them. However both have ambitious plans and currently tolerate each other and look the other way. Long doesn't like Pelley or his Silver Legion, but recognizes that if he wishes to be elected president he needs to use them to his advantage.
Also there will be changes to the 1936 election. Not saying what exactly atm, it will be revealed in an upcoming PR. but there will be changes.
Hopefully this clarifies things for people.
Historically, both Father Coughlin and the Rev. Gerald L. K. Smith were shady cranks and demagogues, but neither became full-on anti-Semitic racist far right types until a combination of Huey Long's assassination, attempts to stay in the spotlight with the advent of the New Deal, FDR derangement, inspiration from the rise of worldwide fascism and opposition to WWII set in- none of which are factors in the KR timeline, obviously. So while KR might reuse personages and names from OTL, not all of them have to correspond 1:1 with our world- the America First Party wasn't even founded until 1944, and isn't directly related to the more famous America First Committee which Lindy and co. were a part of. So just as in this world Mosley and Mussolini are consider extreme far leftists and not particularly racist (???), you do not have to assume that Coughlin and Smith are far-rightists just as they were in OTL (which wasn't even until past 1938 or so anyway), and thus Long and the AUS are also far right. Maybe that makes them too neatly less villainous, but Kaiserreich is a world where neither National Socialism nor fascism existed, while communism straight up overthrew Western Europe, so far rightists have less time to chase after mythical Jewish bogeymen when there's syndies all over the place to bash. And it also assumes that the AUS is far right.
There's even someone on the Discord saying that Pelley didn't go bananas until after he published No More Hunger, and posters on the subreddit who say he only went racist because he met Hitler and modeled himself after him. To that I think that's too much revisionism, in the sense that Pelley and the Silver Shirts make a handy villain faction to fight, and that the man was a spiritualist mystic crank so you can pretty much make up any direction in which his ideology might go. At any rate, like Long, he is power-hungry and not in a way that would be subordinate to the other (unlike Coughlin, Smith, Townsend, etc. are) and so having the Silver Legion as an insurgent hardliner faction within the AUS makes sense.
Long was probably not campaigning on abolishing Jim Crow but maybe he was just so good at economic populism that he was about to shunt away any sort of talk on race either good or bad, given that dealing with the Great Depression and fighting Syndies is a much easier topic to talk about.
There's even someone on the Discord saying that Pelley didn't go bananas until after he published No More Hunger, and posters on the subreddit who say he only went racist because he met Hitler and modeled himself after him. To that I think that's too much revisionism, in the sense that Pelley and the Silver Shirts make a handy villain faction to fight, and that the man was a spiritualist mystic crank so you can pretty much make up any direction in which his ideology might go. At any rate, like Long, he is power-hungry and not in a way that would be subordinate to the other (unlike Coughlin, Smith, Townsend, etc. are) and so having the Silver Legion as an insurgent hardliner faction within the AUS makes sense.
Long was probably not campaigning on abolishing Jim Crow but maybe he was just so good at economic populism that he was about to shunt away any sort of talk on race either good or bad, given that dealing with the Great Depression and fighting Syndies is a much easier topic to talk about.
The Sorellians are explicitly racist and antisemitic IIRC, the Jacobins are the "purge the reactionaries" types. Typical Totalists combine ultranationalism with hardline ultra-Stalinist ideology, they very much want something like 1984; look at Mosley and Mussolini. The Sorellians are outright Commie Nazis.
Now, on the subject at hand, I love the morally grey atmosphere of KR, where the only real bad guys are Totalists, Nat-Pops, Genghis Khan and ol' Hermann and his merry band of racists, but Huey is not a good guy. His AUS is just as bad as Mac Daddy (y'know, the guy who overthrows the legitimately elected POTUS), and it's only because Pelley would jump at the chance to re-institute slavery that he's the "good" option for the AUS.
Now, on the subject at hand, I love the morally grey atmosphere of KR, where the only real bad guys are Totalists, Nat-Pops, Genghis Khan and ol' Hermann and his merry band of racists, but Huey is not a good guy. His AUS is just as bad as Mac Daddy (y'know, the guy who overthrows the legitimately elected POTUS), and it's only because Pelley would jump at the chance to re-institute slavery that he's the "good" option for the AUS.