John de La Pole marries Elizabeth of York?

[FalconHonour]

Which Catherine and Eleanor? Did I miss something?

Unless we're talking about Catherine of Aragon and Eleanor of Portugal 🙂

They are.

Marguerite of Angouleme for Edward of York? Double Anglo-French match, maybe? Or a Howard girl. If Tudor's not alive/Bosworth never happens, the Howard's won't be losing the Dukedom of Norfolk. Maybe the OTL Countess of Ormonde and Wiltshire could become Duchess of York ITTL 😉

 

[VVD0D95]

Which Catherine and Eleanor? Did I miss something?

Unless we're talking about Catherine of Aragon and Eleanor of Portugal 🙂

Catherine of Aragon and Eleanor if Portugal

 

[pjmidd]

In that case:
A) The Edwardian and Ricardian Yorkists are firmly united with each other( after the marriage ofc)
B) The Lancastrian side fizzles out after the death of Tudor, until Jasper Tudor takes up the cause.
i) This causes many prominent Lancastrians to leave this faction in favor of an actual claimant.
ii) Depending on how things play out, these Lancastrians either find a claimant and form a new faction, or they become largely politically inactive, or they join the Yorkists to have some influence.
C) Assuming the Yorkists win out( I'm assuming that's what you wanted?), the eldest son born from this marriage would marry a Portugese Princess with the rest of her family renouncing all rights to the throne.
i) This might cause some of the remaining Lancastrians/Tudorians to join the Yorkists.
________________________________________________________
I might make a family tree later but idk how so don't hold any expectations😄

Bit confused here , Jasper Tudor has no claim to the Throne of England at all , his nephew , Henry VII's claim is via his mother not father. All Jasper has is a mother whose first marriage was to Henry V and being a maternal half brother of Henry VI. Neither of those gives any succession rights at all. Some Tudor sources do claim his father was not Owen Tudor but Edmund Beaufort, this gives a male blood link to the crown but then he's a bastard with no succession rights.

 

[VVD0D95]

They are.

Marguerite of Angouleme for Edward of York? Double Anglo-French match, maybe? Or a Howard girl. If Tudor's not alive/Bosworth never happens, the Howard's won't be losing the Dukedom of Norfolk. Maybe the OTL Countess of Ormonde and Wiltshire could become Duchess of York ITTL 😉

Oooh, hmm, with Tudor dead, I could definitely see the Howard’s keeping the dukedom so thay could well be something

 

[CaptainShadow]

Bit confused here , Jasper Tudor has no claim to the Throne of England at all , his nephew , Henry VII's claim is via his mother not father. All Jasper has is a mother whose first marriage was to Henry V and being a maternal half brother of Henry VI. Neither of those gives any succession rights at all. Some Tudor sources do claim his father was not Owen Tudor but Edmund Beaufort, this gives a male blood link to the crown but then he's a bastard with no succession rights.

Which is exactly why I said that many prominent Lancastrians would leave his side.....

Henry VII OTL based his claim through conquest,so Jasper doing the same wouldn't be a strech(or would it?), check out the thread I linked in the first page for more details....

 

[Jonathan1997]

I do believe that the Castille Monarchy has a better claim to the English Throne than the Tudors but we also must take in to account Edward IV claim to the throne comes through Lionel Duke of Clarence so we must ask which line is more legitimate Lionel and the York's line or Lancastrian line descenders from John of gaunt. I do believe that there is a possibility that Elizabeth of York becomes an ruling Queen because all the other players have killed one another. I do believe that Elizabeth of York was an intelligent woman and could make a good Queen provinding she is not controlled by her nobles. You could also make an that the noble's sick of the wars for the throne my just except a ruling Queen if it bourt country peace. Wish you luck with your storys.

 

[CaptainShadow]

I do believe that the Castille Monarchy has a better claim to the English Throne than the Tudors but we also must take in to account Edward IV claim to the throne comes through Lionel Duke of Clarence so we must ask which line is more legitimate Lionel and the York's line or Lancastrian line descenders from John of gaunt. I do believe that there is a possibility that Elizabeth of York becomes an ruling Queen because all the other players have killed one another. I do believe that Elizabeth of York was an intelligent woman and could make a good Queen provinding she is not controlled by her nobles. You could also make an that the noble's sick of the wars for the throne my just except a ruling Queen if it bourt country peace. Wish you luck with your storys.

The Portugese had a better claim than the Castilians..........

Technically, the Yorkist line had a higher claim, as Lionel of Clarence was the second son of Edward III, as opposed to John of Gaunt, who was the third son......
BUT the Lancastrians had 3 annointed kings which is the main problem IMHO.
As for EoY, she was largely removed/uninterested in politics AFAIK, so we don't know how she would rule,but the Yorkist track record so far has been more or less stellar.......

 

[Tyler96]

I think John and Liz could make a decent go of it for a while. Ricardians like John as a point of continuity with his uncle, Edwardians still get to see a grandson of Edward IV on the throne- though there may be some messy disentangling to do regarding the lands of all those Edwardians attainted by Richard in 1483.

John also has a bunch of siblings. If they’re married astutely he might be able to build up something of a support base amongst the nobility.

Things might get interesting a few years down the line when Bucky and Warwick are all grown up, and there’s potential for Perkin-esque shenanigans.

 

[VVD0D95]

I think John and Liz could make a decent go of it for a while. Ricardians like John as a point of continuity with his uncle, Edwardians still get to see a grandson of Edward IV on the throne- though there may be some messy disentangling to do regarding the lands of all those Edwardians attainted by Richard in 1483.

John also has a bunch of siblings. If they’re married astutely he might be able to build up something of a support base amongst the nobility.

Things might get interesting a few years down the line when Bucky and Warwick are all grown up, and there’s potential for Perkin-esque shenanigans.

Agreed there, would Lincoln jeep Warwick in the tower as Henry did or allow him the freedom to roam around? If the former I could well see there being an execution down the line

 

[CaptainShadow]

Agreed there, would Lincoln jeep Warwick in the tower as Henry did or allow him the freedom to roam around? If the former I could well see there being an execution down the line

Or maybe Warwick gets into the church and maybe rises to be de facto/de jure head of an earlier anglican church? Or maybe he becomes a cardinal if England remains Catholic?

OR he could prove himself loyal to the Yorkist cause by.......idk earning the trust of EoY and Lincoln. Maybe he gains the duchy of Clarence back that way?

It would make for a great story, no? "The loyal son of the traitorous father"? Although that's been done half to death OTL......


Circling back to the marriage issue, I still think that a Portuguese bride is more likely, also, isn't the sea route to India about to be discovered? It was done so in....1498 I believe, so the English could maybe get a head start there? Also, would they have money to finance Columbus when he comes knocking?

 

[VVD0D95]

Or maybe Warwick gets into the church and maybe rises to be de facto/de jure head of an earlier anglican church? Or maybe he becomes a cardinal if England remains Catholic?

OR he could prove himself loyal to the Yorkist cause by.......idk earning the trust of EoY and Lincoln. Maybe he gains the duchy of Clarence back that way?

It would make for a great story, no? "The loyal son of the traitorous father"? Although that's been done half to death OTL......


Circling back to the marriage issue, I still think that a Portuguese bride is more likely, also, isn't the sea route to India about to be discovered? It was done so in....1498 I believe, so the English could maybe get a head start there? Also, would they have money to finance Columbus when he comes knocking?

Hmm this is true, and could be quite interesting as well

and this is true, the route was discovered between 1495-99

 

[VVD0D95]

Or maybe Warwick gets into the church and maybe rises to be de facto/de jure head of an earlier anglican church? Or maybe he becomes a cardinal if England remains Catholic?

OR he could prove himself loyal to the Yorkist cause by.......idk earning the trust of EoY and Lincoln. Maybe he gains the duchy of Clarence back that way?

It would make for a great story, no? "The loyal son of the traitorous father"? Although that's been done half to death OTL......


Circling back to the marriage issue, I still think that a Portuguese bride is more likely, also, isn't the sea route to India about to be discovered? It was done so in....1498 I believe, so the English could maybe get a head start there? Also, would they have money to finance Columbus when he comes knocking?

Re marriages, both Castile and Portugal are rising powers at this point

 

[CaptainShadow]

Re marriages, both Castile and Portugal are rising powers at this point

Yep, they are.

Can someone explain to me why Catherine would be considered aside from the prestige? She's born in 1485, so her future abilities are unproven, they might not even show up! And the Portugese, although they'd offer the same things as Castile/Aragon, would also offer (superior) Lancastrian blood/Legitimacy, which is extremely important if the Yorkists want some of the more powerful Lancastrians back......

(I'm assuming Eleanor is born? If there isn't a Portugese possibility, then John II might be bribed to renkunce his claim, and the Castilians would probably do the same in exchange for a lower dowry.)

 

[Tyler96]

Agreed there, would Lincoln jeep Warwick in the tower as Henry did or allow him the freedom to roam around? If the former I could well see there being an execution down the line

Would there be any familial feeling there? IIRC they'd both hung out in Sheriff Hutton for periods of Richard's reign.

Probably depends how secure he's feeling, and if there's people whispering about Warwick having a better claim to the throne.

 

[VVD0D95]

Yep, they are.

Can someone explain to me why Catherine would be considered aside from the prestige? She's born in 1485, so her future abilities are unproven, they might not even show up! And the Portugese, although they'd offer the same things as Castile/Aragon, would also offer (superior) Lancastrian blood/Legitimacy, which is extremely important if the Yorkists want some of the more powerful Lancastrians back......

(I'm assuming Eleanor is born? If there isn't a Portugese possibility, then John II might be bribed to renkunce his claim, and the Castilians would probably do the same in exchange for a lower dowry.)

Mainly because Spain was the power at the time the marriage would be arranged

Would there be any familial feeling there? IIRC they'd both hung out in Sheriff Hutton for periods of Richard's reign.

Probably depends how secure he's feeling, and if there's people whispering about Warwick having a better claim to the throne.

hmm I think there would be, hmm the church could be an option no?

 

[CaptainShadow]

Mainly because Spain was the power at the time the marriage would be arranged

Depending on the time of when they look for betrothals , the English will have to choose between which direction they want the trade to go in, and will have to make matches accordingly......

 

[VVD0D95]

Depending on the time of when they look for betrothals , the English will have to choose between which direction they want the trade to go in, and will have to make matches accordingly......

Indeed they will and of course whether or not Portugal has a bride of age to offer

 

[Tyler96]

hmm I think there would be, hmm the church could be an option no?

Feel like shoving a kid into the church is... legally iffy?

 

[CaptainShadow]

Feel like shoving a kid into the church is... legally iffy?

Nope

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Nope

It happened all the time otl.