Jews in an Axis victory world

[Teshuvah]

What would be the fate of the Jews of the world if the Axis had won World War II?

Obviously, Europe's Jews (save for those is Switzerland, Britain, and Sweden) would be exterminated completely, and Israel's existence is likely butterflied away. However, Jews would continue to survive in the USA, Canada, South America, and possibly Japan.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Fatherland depicts there being a Reich government agency whose sole function is to lie to American Jews about what's happened to their relatives.

Of course, not all Axis victories will necessarily end in the annihilation of European Jewry.

Some Nazis wanted to send all of Europe's Jews to Madagascar and use their continued welfare as leverage to control American Jews, while I've heard someone wanted to establish a puppet Israel and raise SS legions there.

(I think that's the basis for "SS Legion Judas Maccabeus" from Kratman's book, although I for the life of me cannot remember the actual source.)

Post-Wannasee Conference, unless the Nazis trade the captive Jews for trucks or something (apparently Himmler offered at one point), Occupied Europe's Jews are dead unless they can escape somewhere.

About the neutrals and minor Axis allies (like Hungary pre-1944 or Mussolini before his overthrow), how long will Jews there be safe once the Nazis have beaten the USSR into submission?

 

[Mike Stearns]

I've heard someone wanted to establish a puppet Israel and raise SS legions there.

I'd like to see a TL where that happens. An Israel that's supported by the Nazis and protected by the SS sounds really twisted.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I just found the person who said some Nazis actually wanted to create a puppet Israel with its own SS legions.

It's none other than CalBear.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/archive/index.php/t-73956.html

 

[thekingsguard]

I've laways wondered how a Jewish Madagascar would appear...

 

[MerryPrankster]

I've laways wondered how a Jewish Madagascar would appear...

Probably very squalid and unpleasant. It'd be a giant tropical ghetto, at least at first.

 

[black angel]

I doubt any Puppet "Israel" would be made, Hitler made fairly clear he wanted to kill off the Jews, I've always felt that the Madagascar plan was a fig leaf from both Jews and Germans people just need to be brought around to the mass murder idea, but thats more or less where we're headed no matter what

Italian Jews might make it, Mussolini and the Pope weren't ok with the killing off the Jews thing, it wasn't till the allied landing in Italy that the Italian Puppet state the Nazis set up went after the Italian Jews. Axis victory means no Germans in Italy and (hopefully) Jews still live in Italy, maybe living under some kind of Nuremberg Laws.

 

[Revolutionary Avocado]

I just found the person who said some Nazis actually wanted to create a puppet Israel with its own SS legions.

It's none other than CalBear.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/archive/index.php/t-73956.html

Well, there was a splinter movement of the Irgun, itself a splinter from the Jewish Haganah militia in Palestine, called the Lehi. They, who were quite close to the Nazis in ideology, minus the hating Jews part, entered into a pact with the Nazis calling for the establishment of a fascist "Jewish National Homeland in Palestine" under their rule. It was an incredibly unpopular move in the Jewish community though, and the organization shrunk to about 200 people after that. What I've always wondered was if Hitler had died in say 1937 of natural causes, and someone less crazy had taken over, how would the Jews have fared?

 

[Solomaxwell6]

I just found the person who said some Nazis actually wanted to create a puppet Israel with its own SS legions.

It's none other than CalBear.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/archive/index.php/t-73956.html

Not sure about that. At least in the early 40s, the Nazis had actively entered agreements with Arab leaders whereby they would "cleanse" the Middle East and North Africa of Jews. Palestine was DEFINITELY part of that agreement. Walter Rauff took charge of this operation in 1942, after Wannsee, but I think the agreement was made in 1941? I can't check, I don't have any of my WW2 books anymore.

 

[ColeMercury]

I doubt any Puppet "Israel" would be made, Hitler made fairly clear he wanted to kill off the Jews, I've always felt that the Madagascar plan was a fig leaf from both Jews and Germans people just need to be brought around to the mass murder idea, but thats more or less where we're headed no matter what

Wouldn't the Madagascar plan just be an indirect way of killing off the Jewish population anyway? I mean, it'd basically make the whole island a giant ghetto -- it's genocide in the "dear me, the conditions there are so awful, aren't they?" indirect sort of way, rather than the "get in the concrete building to we can gas you" outright sort of way.

(I just had a thought: with the "Jewish Madagascar" plan, what exactly was supposed to happen to the Malagasy population? Do they get ghetto-ised too or just ignored?)

 

[black angel]

Wouldn't the Madagascar plan just be an indirect way of killing off the Jewish population anyway? I mean, it'd basically make the whole island a giant ghetto -- it's genocide in the "dear me, the conditions there are so awful, aren't they?" indirect sort of way, rather than the "get in the concrete building to we can gas you" outright sort of way.

(I just had a thought: with the "Jewish Madagascar" plan, what exactly was supposed to happen to the Malagasy population? Do they get ghetto-ised too or just ignored?)

I guess that could be the idea, though I can't think of a way that Germany has the money or ships to send 12 million people Madagascar, and thats if they only send the Jews, I see no reason for them not to send the Roma too, maybe the Jehovah's Witnesses and Gays too. So maybe Germany might try the Madagascar, but once it breaks down after a few thousand I think we end up at the mass murder in camps in the East

 

[NothingNow]

Obviously, Europe's Jews (save for those is Switzerland, Britain, and Sweden) would be exterminated completely, and Israel's existence is likely butterflied away. However, Jews would continue to survive in the USA, Canada, South America, and possibly Japan.

Actually, in such a scenario, the safest places to be a Jew would mostly be in Japanese territory. Heck, the Japanese government outright admired Jews in some areas, and for some accomplishments, (and apparently, the Protocols actually helped with this.)

That said, the only real ways the Axis could win would be with someone competent at the helm in Germany, and definitely not while wasting manpower and resources on something that serves only ideological goals. Otherwise it'll just end in a series of Bombing raids and Firestorms.

 

[Max Sinister]

Maaaybe the nazis had chosen the Madagascar solution if they won the war. IOTL, when they had the Wannsee conference, the Wehrmacht had already failed to take Moscow, and Hitler had foolishly declared war on the US, so the chance of winning was zip. That's why they decided to go for their other objective: Killing as many Jews as possible. So it might be that there wouldn't be a holocaust in an "Axis win" scenario.

 

[Intosh]

the Madagascar Plan is ASB...

Please read this thread :

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=188033

Even with a fleet of 50 cruise ships as the Wilhelm Gustloff, the famous german cruise ship sunk in the Baltic in 1945, it will took 10 years at least...

And the calculation was made with a jewish population of 6 M and not 9 or 12 M as the jewish population was probably in all Europe...

And for the poor survivors of this trip, Madagascar will be a kind of hell on earth...

 

[The Uchronian]

Fatherland depicts there being a Reich government agency whose sole function is to lie to American Jews about what's happened to their relatives.

Of course, not all Axis victories will necessarily end in the annihilation of European Jewry.

Some Nazis wanted to send all of Europe's Jews to Madagascar and use their continued welfare as leverage to control American Jews, while I've heard someone wanted to establish a puppet Israel and raise SS legions there.

(I think that's the basis for "SS Legion Judas Maccabeus" from Kratman's book, although I for the life of me cannot remember the actual source.)

Post-Wannasee Conference, unless the Nazis trade the captive Jews for trucks or something (apparently Himmler offered at one point), Occupied Europe's Jews are dead unless they can escape somewhere.

About the neutrals and minor Axis allies (like Hungary pre-1944 or Mussolini before his overthrow), how long will Jews there be safe once the Nazis have beaten the USSR into submission?

History does tell us of a real-life alliance between the axis and the then fringe minority of pro-fascists within the Zionist movement{the Betarim in particular}.........

 

[Wendell]

It is almost certainly ASB, but perhaps German-Japanese friendship takes off sooner and involves military exchanges, and one of the Japanese discusses their Fugu Plan with their German counterpart?