Jewish Arab Empire

[MNP]

I get ya! I just wanted to cover that point. From what I can gather from Jewish soteriology (if we can say that such a thing exists), it has something to do with whether you are righteous or unrighteous--not whether you're Jewish or non-Jewish. But, like you said, the actual content of the hereafter is not central to Jewish belief/practice.

Well all right then.

Anyway, I like Valdemar II's idea best; it successfully has an Arab and Jewish identity at the same time. I do wonder how important Jerusalem is, though: historically, Judah (or was it Israel?) was a highly centralized, de facto theocratic state ruled from Jerusalem. Whoever's in charge of Yemen may want to avoid that possibility.

How much of a state was Judah really? Even under the Macabees. I think Jerusalem had more significant as a political center geographically than a religious one, at least until the Romans stomped all over it in the 70s AD (was it 80s?).

 

[Minchandre]

How much of a state was Judah really? Even under the Macabees. I think Jerusalem had more significant as a political center geographically than a religious one, at least until the Romans stomped all over it in the 70s AD (was it 80s?).

Judah was as much of a state as any - and just to be clear, I mean the one after Solomon's death, which is distinct in all but name from the Hasmoneans.

Anyway, my point was that the king was essentially controlled by the Cohenim, which makes Jerusalem important religiously and politically, for exactly the same reason. As far as religion above-and-beyond politics, though, the Kingdom of Israel constructed a pair of large temples to replace the Temple, so their people wouldn't be religiously connected to their enemies/rivals to the south.

 

[Fearless Leader]

Well there were Jewish tribes in and around Mecca and Medina during the time of Mohammed. Mohammed even tried to convert them to his new religion, seeing them as valuable allies only to be turned down.

Let's say that in this scenario, a Jewish leader pre-empts Mohammed in the 6th century and has a dream about "Re-uniting Abraham's lineage to regain the Promised land". His views quickly gain prominence and lead to Judaism adopting more millenarian and inclusive views not uncommon in some sects of Judaism during the time period.

As proselytizing efforts bear fruit more and more Arabs become Jews, however they are "second class Jews" with only their children gaining "A Full Inheritance". These efforts coupled with Military might, lead to the Jews tapping into the trend of Arab expansionism earlier and going on a wave of Conquest centered on first gaining Jerusalem, then "The promised land" and then the entire world claiming their leader (and their spawn) to be the messiah bringing the new kingdom.

 

[NothingNow]

Well there were Jewish tribes in and around Mecca and Medina during the time of Mohammed. Mohammed even tried to convert them to his new religion, seeing them as valuable allies only to be turned down.

Let's say that in this scenario, a Jewish leader pre-empts Mohammed in the 6th century and has a dream about "Re-uniting Abraham's lineage to regain the Promised land". His views quickly gain prominence and lead to Judaism adopting more millenarian and inclusive views not uncommon in some sects of Judaism during the time period.

As proselytizing efforts bear fruit more and more Arabs become Jews, however they are "second class Jews" with only their children gaining "A Full Inheritance". These efforts coupled with Military might, lead to the Jews tapping into the trend of Arab expansionism earlier and going on a wave of Conquest centered on first gaining Jerusalem, then "The promised land" and then the entire world claiming their leader (and their spawn) to be the messiah bringing the new kingdom.

That's kinda Jewish but not really Jewish.
IIRC the Khazars converted to Judaism because it was a safe choice that would allow them to maintain trade with both the Muslims and the Christians without having them be Pagans.

 

[Rich Mullins]

That's kinda Jewish but not really Jewish.
IIRC the Khazars converted to Judaism because it was a safe choice that would allow them to maintain trade with both the Muslims and the Christians without having them be Pagans.

Why not make a timeline where Mohammed converts to Judaism and never creates Islam, but instead devotes his energy to making all Arabs Jewish? Also he does not make himself out to be a prophet. One way to do this would be to have the P.O.D. be that Jewish Himyar King Dhu Nuwas defeats the Ethiopians and Judaism as a result becomes more popular throughout the whole of Arabia and by the time of Mohammed a large portion of Arabians are Jews. Mohammed simply converts those who remain pagans, monotheists, or Christians.

 

[Alayta]

Judaism is inclusive enough. It's just got a dimension to it that is ethnic and (unlike Christianity and Islam) is not terribly interested in converting the masses.

Sounds like judaism is fashism.

 

[Minchandre]

Sounds like judaism is fashism.

First, it's spelled fascism. Second, fascism is specific to far-rightist groups in Italy, and was heavily tied up Catholicism more than it was in race. Third, Judaism did not and does not state that non-Jews are somehow inferior, it just doesn't actively proselytize like Christianity and Islam, and is heavily caught up in a number of cultural traditions above and beyond the religious ones, like, e.g., Hinduism or Sikhism (or even Islam, for that matter, which is heavily Arab-flavored in many places)

 

[Eigenwelt]

I wouldn't modify Judaism to achieve your goals because then it is no longer Judaism.

Instead of a prophet you need a warlord. Someone who is either coincidentally Jewish or enamored with Judaism enough to convert on his own. As he grows his temporal and political empire Judaism becomes the defacto state religion. No need to persecute or proselytize, infact non-Jews can be perfectly acceptable within this framework.

They just can't have the same rights as Jews. Having being Jewish be key to any kind of political or trade position, even unofficially, will create a huge benefit to converting. Think of it as enfranchisement through conversion.

Whether or not the exisiting Jewish community accepts the new converts is up to you, as is any schisms that develop. As long as the converts practice recognizable Judaism and as long as the political entity created by the initial warlord accepts them, then your original premise can be achieved.

 

[Skokie]

Instead of a prophet you need a warlord. Someone who is either coincidentally Jewish or enamored with Judaism enough to convert on his own. As he grows his temporal and political empire Judaism becomes the defacto state religion. No need to persecute or proselytize, infact non-Jews can be perfectly acceptable within this framework.

To get a future Jewish empire, he'd also need to gain the acceptance of Jews around the world. Invading and liberating Judea from the Christians and setting up Jerusalem as his capital would help a lot...needless to say.

 

[Eigenwelt]

To get a future Jewish empire, he'd also need to gain the acceptance of Jews around the world.

I'll completely agree that it would make things much easier, but I disagree as to it being an absolute necessity.

 

[von kressenstein]

So, if some prophet came along and started preaching a strain of Judaism that didn't have those things, should I even bother calling it that? The Arabs might, the Christians might, but how would the Judean Jews feel about being conquered by strange southerners with an evangelical take on their religion?

well considering all three religions are off shoots of Christianity .. i would agree and say that any new prophet would make it a new religion that the others will find reason to grab swords and guns and kill people over

 

[GreatScottMarty]

Okay, so how can I, before the dawn of Islam, get the Arab population to convert to Judaism? I'm planning a timeline based on the results.

Yes, I am going to butterfly Islam away. Sorry.

Jews don't Proseylitze (sp?), I know this a constant refrain but even a POD before 622 AD, doesn't change the fact. I am not sure if your intent is to create an empire like Muhammed that spanned from India to Spain or one that merely encompasses the middle east and some of North Africa. I am not knowledgable of middle ages history but I know that after the destruction of the second temple and the beginning of rabbinic judaism; judaism turned inward and began focusing on maintaining themselves rather than seeking out new converts. Even before then, Jews weren't not big on converting and to this day conversion into Orthodox sects is difficult and takes at least 3 attempts to just begin studying. I think if you want a Jewish Empire in the Mid-East, I think your best bet is to avoid the dynastic issues that arose after the death of Solomon. If you can keep the Neo-babylonians fundamentally weak and unstable and focus on keeping Mespotomia than maybe (just maybe) Israel has a chance against the Egyptians.
Yes, I realize I moved your POD about 800 yrs, but I think that is necessary.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

My plan is to somehow get the Arabs converted to a sect of Judaism in the 6th or 7th century (anno domini), and then have their population explosion spread it across the Middle East, with Arabic being the "low" language, and Hebrew being the "high" language. This is challenging to not do in a ridiculous way, but not impossible.

What I need is for the conversion to take place. Judaism is not an inclusive religion, but it is by no means unheard of for people to convert anyway. Look at the Khazars. Anyway, wasn't there some kind of weird Ethiopian Jewish state in Yemen? Himyar, wasn't it?

Is it as easy as having an influential prophet appear? I mean if I time it right the Arabs demographic expanision will still occur.

You're probably not going to get Hebrew spoken except as a ceremonial religious language, but getting Judaism adopted shouldn't be that hard, if you create a sect that is more inclusive. Judaism isn't all that different from Islam - but Islam did fill a political void, and Judaism will need to develop a more practical legislative system for day-to-day life. Again, I don't think it would be a problem, but if you create an Arab Jewish empire, Judaism will look a whole lot different than it does today, in spirit and in doctrine.

 

[NothingNow]

well considering all three religions are off shoots of Christianity .. i would agree and say that any new prophet would make it a new religion that the others will find reason to grab swords and guns and kill people over

you're not paying attention are you? Judaism is the Predecessor and forbearer to Christianity and Islam.

 

[von kressenstein]

you're not paying attention are you? Judaism is the Predecessor and forbearer to Christianity and Islam.

actually i am paying attention. which is why i made the statement the way i did.


Islam may not be around yet.. but infant Christianity is. what I was getting at was the fact that if you throw in a new prophet... it is no longer judiasim but becomes what ever they decide to call it. Jews will still be Jews till the card carrying prophet shows up with all the credentials and papers to prove who he is with thunder and lighting and big floods and stuff.


Not just some dude walking around with some sheep saying .. yo i am the prophet and the son of god and stuff.. watch as i turn water into wine .. great recipe .. we have this on monday nights during the game in heaven.. god is a big Lions fan....

 

[GreatScottMarty]

A prophet at the time of Christ, just won't do it. They had Bar Kochba and see how that ended (destruction of the 2nd Temple and then Diaspora). The Romans are simply to strong and powerful for Jews to get rid of and create there own competing state. As I suggested Previously keep the House of David strong and you are on the right track. By the time you hit the 30s to 40s AD you have Rome to deal with (not the Byzantines, Rome at it's height in all of glory and in the midst of expansion, If this comes around at the death of Claudius and you can take advantage of Roman politics then maybe, but still unlikely because the next guy IIRC Trajan will just put the revolt down ie Bar Kochba) and all of the camel riding nomads (no offense meant) in the Arabian Peninsula isn't going to make a difference against a well equipped and trained Roman Legion led by Trajan, Vespasian, Titus or who ever. Rome was strong and full of vitality and won't be dismissed because some peasants with slings believe they have G-d on there side; unless of course they do . But now I am getting into matters of Faith.

Language: The Pasha is correct when he says you won't get Hebrew. I would expect Aramiac to be the Langua Franca.

 

[Larrikin]

Jewish Arabia

If Mo or one of the other half dozen or so monotheist preachers running around Arabia at the same time, or in an earlier period, had emphasised the Abrahamic descent of Arabs as well as Jews and led to the Arab tribes deciding to follow Abraham's religion as well.