Jesus is never crucified?

[MrP]

Well, Vergil metamorphosized into a magician during the Middle Ages. There are all kinds of interesting tales about him.

Miraculous powers were also attributed to Pythagoras, and he even has the benefit of being the founder of a cult of sorts. Should we suspend any and all discussion about either of these two figures, and leave it up to the theologians?

A magician, eh? That's rather good.

Aha, I found him! http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius08.html

 

[Leo Caesius]

Oh, I was referring not to the practitioners but to the truth of the alleged mirales.

Who is to say? I deal with magical texts myself. I haven't yet attempted to summon up any demons or make someone fall in love with me yet.

 

[Leo Caesius]

As for the original topic of the thread, the Talmud relates that Jesus was first stoned, then "hung on a tree," by which they probably mean crucified. This all happened on the eve of Passover in Lydda, birthplace of St. George, which is today Lod, a suburb of Tel Aviv.

 

[Dan1988]

So Jesus's grave is below a runway of Ben-Guiron Airport? That's interesting.

 

[Keenir]

So Jesus's grave is below a runway of Ben-Guiron Airport? That's interesting.

I'm surprised the world Christian Community isn't up in arms over that.

Jesus had to be crucified... He was destined to die in the most horrible and despicable way so to carry the sins of the world...

but there are ways much more horrible and despicable to die. even back then there were.

and "despicable"? the cross was for evildoers - thats about as despicable as it was.

That only applies to legal executions, it doesn't stop a lynch mob from getting him - which is I assume what was being referred to. Jesus meeting the same fate as St. Stephen, in other words. Would this make a stone the symbol of Christianity?

Maybe.

In any event, the Roman authorities would slam down hard on the mob -- *Christianity might end up seeing the Romans as the Hand Of God...which won't hurt their missionary efforts in other parts of the Roman Empire.

with them, and an extrajudicial stoning isn't too hard arrange since all you need is some angry people and plenty of throwing-sized rocks.

I just can't imagine that there won't be people who remember how the Romans cracked down on the last few riots.

but, as the Mythbusters say, Plausible.

It might be interesting to see how Christian relations with the Romans were altered by such a change. Presumably the Romans are going to do their best to break up the riot/lynch mob that kills Jesus; they were opposed to those kinds of things on general principle. Between that and the fact that he was not executed by Rome relations between Christians and Romans might be friendlier than OTL.

*nods*

 

[le.Singe]

As for the original topic of the thread, the Talmud relates that Jesus was first stoned, then "hung on a tree," by which they probably mean crucified. This all happened on the eve of Passover in Lydda, birthplace of St. George, which is today Lod, a suburb of Tel Aviv.

Stoned? The Talmud says that? Does it say who did the stoning?

If Jesus were stoned to death, I highly doubt that the symbol of Christianity would become a rock, though (I forget who suggested that, but someone did on the first page). Most likely, it would be the "chi rho" symbol (>P<), or maybe the fish thing you sometimes see on cars, neither of which is as visually appealing as the Latin cross. The cross is also quite easily modified and manipulated to make cool-looking flags and coats of arms, and the other two symbols are not. So what? Does this have any serious implications beyond "flags are uglier?" Will Christianity's popularity be affected?

 

[Flocculencio]

He did recommend this rather interesting book - somethink about Jesus and mysteries. Personally, I'm rather looking forward to it - Jesus the detective? Rock on!

I looked up as the dame entered my office. Mysterious, but then they always are.

"What's your name, miss?" I asked.

"Magdalene, Mary Magdalene."

Well, she had the same name as my mom but she sure looked a whole lot different.

"Mind if I smoke?" she asked in a husky drawl.
"Go ahead, lady," I said, "Let there be light."

And her cigarette was lit.

"Now why'd you want to see me?" I asked, "If most people have problems they usually go to the Tribune and he sorts it right out."

"This is the kind of problem the Romans can't help me with," she said, languidly exhaling, "Priest problems."

This sounded interesting- I reached for my notebook but it was just then that five angry Levites burst through the door.

 

[le.Singe]

I looked up as the dame entered my office. Mysterious, but then they always are.

"What's your name, miss?" I asked.

"Magdalene, Mary Magdalene."

Well, she had the same name as my mom but she sure looked a whole lot different.

"Mind if I smoke?" she asked in a husky drawl.
"Go ahead, lady," I said, "Let there be light."

And her cigarette was lit.

"Now why'd you want to see me?" I asked, "If most people have problems they usually go to the Tribune and he sorts it right out."

"This is the kind of problem the Romans can't help me with," she said, languidly exhaling, "Priest problems."

This sounded interesting- I reached for my notebook but it was just then that five angry Levites burst through the door.

"I can try, lady, but I ain't promising no miracles..."

 

[Blizrun]

. . .

Y'all are going to Hell.

 

[sunsurf]

In Howard Waldrop's novel, Them Bones, the Moslems colonized the Americas. It seems Jesus was stoned by the disciples.

Well, what if the disciples stone Jesus to death, then the Resurrection happens three days later... (That's not what happens in the novel, but oh, well...)

 

[Tocomocho]

In Howard Waldrop's novel, Them Bones, the Moslems colonized the Americas. It seems Jesus was stoned by the disciples.

Well, what if the disciples stone Jesus to death, then the Resurrection happens three days later... (That's not what happens in the novel, but oh, well...)

And how did Islam develop whithout the influence of Old Prophet Yeshua? Uh, I hate lazy writers who don't care about main inconsistencies in their plots...

 

[Keenir]

. . .

Y'all are going to Hell.

to quote 'Hell is other people'.

specifically, bad trolls.

 

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

There was an WI article in one of the What Ifs books.Don't know what volume but I will look it up.Jesus is not crucified and allowed to return home and amasses a large following.His thoughts and sayings spread over the Empire and even beyond.He dies at 97 and after burial his body disappears and people start seeing the risen Christ.The article ends with Constantine deciding where to build a new -synagogue.The books may still be in print.Anyone remember the author?

It's in More What If? Pontius Pilate Spares Jesus, Carlos M. N. Eire, pp.48 ff.

I LOVED that Story ...

Strangely Enough, My First thought on Reading it ...

Was, Now that's a Christianity I Could Belong to!

 

[sunsurf]

And how did Islam develop whithout the influence of Old Prophet Yeshua? Uh, I hate lazy writers who don't care about main inconsistencies in their plots...

Yeah, he doesn't deal with that.

But...willing suspension of disbelief...I was willing to assume some new religion influenced by Judaism might have arisen.

to quote 'Hell is other people'.

specifically, bad trolls.

Don't forget, there's a small town in
central Michigan by that name.

Notice the number of Star Trek-related town names...assuming the list is accurate!

 

[Chengar Qordath]

I LOVED that Story ...

Strangely Enough, My First thought on Reading it ...

Was, Now that's a Christianity I Could Belong to!

Bah, give me an ATL where the neo-Platonists are in power any day over a more Jewish Christianity. Then at least I wouldn't be so strange for being an odd variety of neo-Platonist in predominantly Christian country.

Then again, with all the butterflies from changing te world's dominant religion, I would probably either not exist or end up with a new set of religious ideology that is still bizzare for the times I live in.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Stoned? The Talmud says that? Does it say who did the stoning?

No, the references are pretty muddled, for obvious reasons. The clearest reference is found in Tractate Sanhedrin 43a in the section on stonings.

If Jesus were stoned to death, I highly doubt that the symbol of Christianity would become a rock, though (I forget who suggested that, but someone did on the first page). Most likely, it would be the "chi rho" symbol (>P<), or maybe the fish thing you sometimes see on cars, neither of which is as visually appealing as the Latin cross.

Other early Christian symbols include the dove (often with olive branch), the anchor (on the basis of Hebrews 6:19-20), palm branches, the IHS monogram (that Jack Chick thinks stands for Isis, Horus, and Seth), and the alpha and omega. Some of these might lend themselves to being stylized.

 

[Dan1988]

Don't forget, there's a small town in
central Michigan by that name.

Notice the number of Star Trek-related town names...assuming the list is accurate!

That just made me laugh.

 

[Count Dearborn]

One of my university professors, a former minister by the way, always made jokes about how Christians would have ended up with a stone as a holy symbol if the Jews had gotten their way.

What if Joshua-ben-Joseph had faked his death?

 

[Keenir]

What if Joshua-ben-Joseph had faked his death?

kind of hard to fake a death by crucifixion (though if Jesus-ben-YHWH had been taken down in time...).....but death by ascension into Heaven? hm

 

[Don_Giorgio]

According to Mosaic Law Jesus had to be stoned for blasphemy... But because Judaea was a Roman province under a Procurator the death penalty imposed to him by the Sanhedrin had to be ratified by the Procurator... So the Romans did the "dirty job" for the Jews... in a Roman way... Since Jesus was a Jew "a mere rebel" in the eyes of the Romans the only way to die was on the cross as a traitor of faith (which the Romans didnt care of...) and of Caesar... If he was a Roman Citizen he would have been decapitated which is a "noble" death penalty... But if another way to kill him was chosen none of the Prophecies would be fullfilled and he would be soon forgotten as a false prophet... Jesus was destined to die on the cross as a traitor in the deepest humiliation hated by his fellow countrymen and mocked by the Romans and become the "scaping goat" carrying all the sins of the World... And with his Resurrection taking every righteous dead in heaven...