Japanese Industrialization happens 20+ years earlier, Europe power projection in Asia is weaker, how much land does Japan want / can take?

So I'm making another Napoleon Victory timeline, this time focused on giving Napoleon the greatest plausible victory (definitely stretching the definition of plausible). The outcome is most of Europe remains under French rule (so no Dutch, Portuguese, or Spanish empires), the Russians so badly beaten the Decembrist event isn't just a coup but a failed civil war, and the British nose-dive around the 1860s after a successful Sepoy Mutiny and rising popular agitation at home.

Japan is forcibly opened up between 1811 (Russian Vice-Admiral arrested) and the end of the Opium War (East India Company fucking around). The Komei/Meiji restoration follows significantly earlier, while all the factors to pressure them to westernize are still present (forced re-opening, Opium war scaring shit out of them, feeling of getting boxed in by European colonies). On top of all this, the French are more than happy to extend extremely generous loans and business deals with the Japanese in order to indirectly contest British power in the Pacific (which then falls apart between 1860-1900ish).

So, with an earlier industrializing Japan with all the same territorial desires but with a significantly better economy and political atmosphere to act in, what would they take? For context: I would ideally want them to seize the entirety of Manchuria from the Qing during the 1860s during their civil wars. The southern area for the resources to further enrich Japan's industries, and the northern area as a buffer zone against Russia (which has significantly less Siberian infrastructure and is therefor unable to capitalize in the Qing chaos until it's too late).

I'm fully aware this is a Japan wank, but since I'm already doing a Napoleon wank I might as well indulge as many ridiculous "what if's" as I can in one scenario. So, indulge me. What are the territorial Aspirations of a 19th century Japan that more money and fewer deterrents?
 
Korea is a must, it's seen as a dagger pointed at Japan and is needed for security.

Otherwise I don't know how much they wanted versus how much they thought they needed to get respect as an equal to European colonial powers.
 
I don't think much more otl besides an earlier Manchuria,if anything Formosa might become a permanent part of Japan now
 
I honestly don't see the scenario as very plausible, as even by 1840 there simply is not as much incentive to westernize, both direct (the technological superiority is provem) and indirect (the pressure is lacking because of weaker Russia not encroaching on Korea), so I doubt as much/as urgent. You also need to butterfly someting so that there's at least one vigorous figurehead for westernizing between the Shogun and the Emperor (adding a whole state overhaul on top of it is going to prove very hard and costly).

Ignoring or handwaving such concerns, I would agree that they have a nice all you can eat buffet ahead, with the caveat that weaker technology will certain make this Japan's job harder and that eventually somebody will start catching up to them.
 
So, if the everything is moved ahead 20 years the Mejiji Restoration starts in 1848. So, who do the Japanese decide to be their Western patron? Is it still primarily the British? If they're on that schedule, do they try to force Korea to open up to Japanese influence in 1855? What would be China's reaction? At the time China was deeply embroiled in the Taiping Rebelion, along with other internal revolts and would be unable to intervene. If the first Sino/Japanese War starts in 1874, and Japan has done as well as OTL is should win decisively. At that point the Western Powers might try to restrain Japan, not wanting China to collapse.
 
I honestly don't see the scenario as very plausible, as even by 1840 there simply is not as much incentive to westernize, both direct (the technological superiority is provem) and indirect (the pressure is lacking because of weaker Russia not encroaching on Korea), so I doubt as much/as urgent. You also need to butterfly someting so that there's at least one vigorous figurehead for westernizing between the Shogun and the Emperor (adding a whole state overhaul on top of it is going to prove very hard and costly).

Ignoring or handwaving such concerns, I would agree that they have a nice all you can eat buffet ahead, with the caveat that weaker technology will certain make this Japan's job harder and that eventually somebody will start catching up to them.
I'd argue the pressure is still there. They still witness the first opium war and see how a tiny island on the other side of the planet utterly stomped the Chinese.

In fact the opium war can be even more humiliating for china than IRL as Britain forces them to be their preferred trade partner to make up for loss of market influence in Europe.
 
So, if the everything is moved ahead 20 years the Mejiji Restoration starts in 1848. So, who do the Japanese decide to be their Western patron? Is it still primarily the British? If they're on that schedule, do they try to force Korea to open up to Japanese influence in 1855? What would be China's reaction? At the time China was deeply embroiled in the Taiping Rebelion, along with other internal revolts and would be unable to intervene. If the first Sino/Japanese War starts in 1874, and Japan has done as well as OTL is should win decisively. At that point the Western Powers might try to restrain Japan, not wanting China to collapse.
The French are their western patron. France has little direct interest in the pacific as Europe is basically their colony, but they want to block British and Russian expansion in the region.

Napoleon III still gets the throne and he's still the wiley bastard as IRL but with a significantly larger army and treasury to throw around.

As for China, I could easily see them trying to defend Korea despite falling apart in the 1860s (like Second Opium War irl) and losing so badly they are forced to cede half of all manchuria to Japan as they did Russia IRL.
 
As I said, that they can take. They won't be able to swallow all of China, but whatever they can take, they will take. The markets of China are too important for Japanese economic growth to leave to anyone else.
I mean sure, Japan could beat up China until the Qing (or Taiping?) Emperor agrees to be their primary trade partner but I can't see a full scale invasion and conquest working out. At most I figured Manchuria, Shangdong, Fujan, Tawian, and Hainan, but no amount of French subsidies can support a full blown occupation of China.
 
I'd argue the pressure is still there. They still witness the first opium war and see how a tiny island on the other side of the planet utterly stomped the Chinese.

In fact the opium war can be even more humiliating for china than IRL as Britain forces them to be their preferred trade partner to make up for loss of market influence in Europe.
It it possible, but unlikely; people very often rationalize even in the best of times, that what has just befallen their neighbors would not take them. The Opium Wars did not lead to the Meiji Restoration; the Perry Expedition did.
 
The French are their western patron. France has little direct interest in the pacific as Europe is basically their colony, but they want to block British and Russian expansion in the region.

Napoleon III still gets the throne and he's still the wiley bastard as IRL but with a significantly larger army and treasury to throw around.

As for China, I could easily see them trying to defend Korea despite falling apart in the 1860s (like Second Opium War irl) and losing so badly they are forced to cede half of all manchuria to Japan as they did Russia IRL.
Why would Napoleon III still get the throne if Napoleon I succeeds? Napoleon II doesn't get sent to Austria, which might butterfly away the tuberculosis that killed him OTL, and Napoleon stays married and in proximity of his wife, meaning he could easily have more children. And those children wouldn't have to try to rebuild France's prestige (heavily degraded by the collapse of its continental empire and Britain eclipsing France) via harebrained foreign expeditions.

I'd argue the pressure is still there. They still witness the first opium war and see how a tiny island on the other side of the planet utterly stomped the Chinese.

In fact the opium war can be even more humiliating for china than IRL as Britain forces them to be their preferred trade partner to make up for loss of market influence in Europe.
China getting stomped in the First Opium War didn't elicit much of a response from either Japan or China though. For Japan, they saw it happen, had the Dutch warn them to open up willingly or risk getting open up by force as well, and still didn't open up for another decade until the US came with the Black Ships. For China, they didn't start their Self-Strengthening Movement to reduce the gap between Europe and China until the 1860s, after another Opium War and a series of major rebellions like the Taiping and Nian Rebellions. China being defeated militarily by much smaller nations is nothing new (all the northern nomads, including the Jurchen and Manchu ancestors of the Qing) and they also haven't had the best naval track record either. They just usually dealt with it by paying the invaders off with tribute or some other concessions. The extent of the problem only became apparent after decades of increased incursions forcing changes to China's internal laws and social norms and the central government's inability to prevent those changes from being forced upon the empire.

Plus, there's no guarantee that the Opium War would even unfold in this TL. The OTL First Opium War was hugely controversial (the antiwar faction's motion failed by 9 votes, 262 votes for vs 271 votes against) and diverting more of Britain's fleet away from its already established interests in India while the French have previously threatened said interests via proxy wars in India and the invasion of Egypt would make it even less prudent to go to war with yet another major power (the British didn't have a clear picture of Qing weakness before the Opium Wars, IIRC).

Korea is a must, it's seen as a dagger pointed at Japan and is needed for security.

Otherwise I don't know how much they wanted versus how much they thought they needed to get respect as an equal to European colonial powers.
According to Duus, "dagger pointed at the heart of Japan" was due not only to Korea's proximity to Japan, but also its weakness on the world stage. Meiji leaders were interested in "the maintenance of Korean independence," which required self-strengthening and reforms that the Japanese had implemented and would attempt to influence/force Korea to adopt in turn, rather than simply economically and militarily dominating the peninsula.

OTL Japan's initial motivation for taking Korea was because of the threat of Europeans (specifically Russia) using Korea as a staging point to threat Japanese interests, not because Korea itself was inherently a threat. The debate on whether to invade Korea in the 1870s was not one of conquest, but rather concerned a potential punitive expedition to force Korea to recognize the Japanese emperor instead of only the Chinese emperor, plus trade relations and such. A reordering of the old order, not a redrawing of the map, as it were. It was a minority opinion, regardless, and one without set plans or a unified goal. And when they did dominate Korea fully, they were satisfied with leaving it as a protectorate for a fair bit, rather than impose direct annexation.

The main issue was that Korea was seen as too weak to protect itself (not least due to the reactionary tendencies of the Daewongun, who dominated Joseon politics for a good part of the 1800s, and the factional conflict within the Joseon court itself) and their attempts to balance the Chinese, Russians, and Japanese off each other was seen as threatening to Japanese interests since it could've seen the peninsula fall under Russian domination (after the assassination of Queen Min, King Gojong took refuge in the Russian legation, for example). Plus, Korea had already been subject to punitive expeditions by the French, Americans, and Russians previously, so they saw it as a threat that only increased in magnitude over time.

Even in the 1880s, Japanese leadership hadn't decided whether to commit to a passive, nurturing role to encourage Korean reforms or to be aggressive and interventionist to force reforms. Actually dominating the peninsula was not one of the options at that point.

Japan started the Meiji Restoration in 1868 and annexed Korea in 1910, so it took 42 years to build up enough strength to impose itself on Korea while Korea largely stagnated. If Japan modernizes faster and tries to force Korea open before the Daewongun takes power in the 1860s, that sets the stage for Korea to not be as weak as it was OTL before Japan starts seeing Western imperialism as the only practical world order and one that they had to partake in.
As I said, that they can take. They won't be able to swallow all of China, but whatever they can take, they will take. The markets of China are too important for Japanese economic growth to leave to anyone else.
According to Duus in The Abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910, the initial response in Japan to China's defeats at the hands of the British in the 1860s was that "the revelation of Chinese weakness promoted the idea that Japan and China, which were as 'close as lips and teeth,' should stand together to defend East Asia against the intrusions of the predatory Western nations. But gradually, since China remained unable to prevent the Western nations from nibbling away at its borders, the Meiji leaders grew more ambivalent toward their largest neighbor. From the late 1870s, they began to regard the Ch'ing empire as their principal hypothetical enemy" [21, 22].

Basically, it's only because the Qing kept losing over the course of several decades and could not be regarded as a great power ally that the Japanese reevaluated their stance towards China. If the timetable gets pushed forward for Japanese modernization, then there's nothing really pointing to Japan not allying or supporting China and Chinese modernization to try and resist Western imperialism in the manner they tried to impose on Korea during the late 1800s before they lose all hope in China actually being a viable ally. It's far less costly to Japan to gain concessions that way than to force China at gunpoint and garrison their new holdings for fear of a reversal later, after all. That was the Japanese approach to Korea until Japan managed to force the Chinese and Russians out and had already gained so many concessions and business interests over the preceding decades (plus the relative stagnation of the native Korean economy) that direct annexation was economical.

All this to say, expansionistic Imperial Japan, at least the way Peter Duus put it, wasn't inevitable and was informed by the behavior and conditions of neighboring nations and Western expansionism. Curb the latter and see the former reform faster (potentially with Japanese assistance) without Western pressure bearing down quite as fast and East Asia might've avoided the worst of the atrocities of the 20th century.
 
Why would Napoleon III still get the throne if Napoleon I succeeds? Napoleon II doesn't get sent to Austria, which might butterfly away the tuberculosis that killed him OTL, and Napoleon stays married and in proximity of his wife, meaning he could easily have more children. And those children wouldn't have to try to rebuild France's prestige (heavily degraded by the collapse of its continental empire and Britain eclipsing France) via harebrained foreign expeditions.


China getting stomped in the First Opium War didn't elicit much of a response from either Japan or China though. For Japan, they saw it happen, had the Dutch warn them to open up willingly or risk getting open up by force as well, and still didn't open up for another decade until the US came with the Black Ships. For China, they didn't start their Self-Strengthening Movement to reduce the gap between Europe and China until the 1860s, after another Opium War and a series of major rebellions like the Taiping and Nian Rebellions. China being defeated militarily by much smaller nations is nothing new (all the northern nomads, including the Jurchen and Manchu ancestors of the Qing) and they also haven't had the best naval track record either. They just usually dealt with it by paying the invaders off with tribute or some other concessions. The extent of the problem only became apparent after decades of increased incursions forcing changes to China's internal laws and social norms and the central government's inability to prevent those changes from being forced upon the empire.

Plus, there's no guarantee that the Opium War would even unfold in this TL. The OTL First Opium War was hugely controversial (the antiwar faction's motion failed by 9 votes, 262 votes for vs 271 votes against) and diverting more of Britain's fleet away from its already established interests in India while the French have previously threatened said interests via proxy wars in India and the invasion of Egypt would make it even less prudent to go to war with yet another major power (the British didn't have a clear picture of Qing weakness before the Opium Wars, IIRC).


According to Duus, "dagger pointed at the heart of Japan" was due not only to Korea's proximity to Japan, but also its weakness on the world stage. Meiji leaders were interested in "the maintenance of Korean independence," which required self-strengthening and reforms that the Japanese had implemented and would attempt to influence/force Korea to adopt in turn, rather than simply economically and militarily dominating the peninsula.

OTL Japan's initial motivation for taking Korea was because of the threat of Europeans (specifically Russia) using Korea as a staging point to threat Japanese interests, not because Korea itself was inherently a threat. The debate on whether to invade Korea in the 1870s was not one of conquest, but rather concerned a potential punitive expedition to force Korea to recognize the Japanese emperor instead of only the Chinese emperor, plus trade relations and such. A reordering of the old order, not a redrawing of the map, as it were. It was a minority opinion, regardless, and one without set plans or a unified goal. And when they did dominate Korea fully, they were satisfied with leaving it as a protectorate for a fair bit, rather than impose direct annexation.

The main issue was that Korea was seen as too weak to protect itself (not least due to the reactionary tendencies of the Daewongun, who dominated Joseon politics for a good part of the 1800s, and the factional conflict within the Joseon court itself) and their attempts to balance the Chinese, Russians, and Japanese off each other was seen as threatening to Japanese interests since it could've seen the peninsula fall under Russian domination (after the assassination of Queen Min, King Gojong took refuge in the Russian legation, for example). Plus, Korea had already been subject to punitive expeditions by the French, Americans, and Russians previously, so they saw it as a threat that only increased in magnitude over time.

Even in the 1880s, Japanese leadership hadn't decided whether to commit to a passive, nurturing role to encourage Korean reforms or to be aggressive and interventionist to force reforms. Actually dominating the peninsula was not one of the options at that point.

Japan started the Meiji Restoration in 1868 and annexed Korea in 1910, so it took 42 years to build up enough strength to impose itself on Korea while Korea largely stagnated. If Japan modernizes faster and tries to force Korea open before the Daewongun takes power in the 1860s, that sets the stage for Korea to not be as weak as it was OTL before Japan starts seeing Western imperialism as the only practical world order and one that they had to partake in.

According to Duus in The Abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910, the initial response in Japan to China's defeats at the hands of the British in the 1860s was that "the revelation of Chinese weakness promoted the idea that Japan and China, which were as 'close as lips and teeth,' should stand together to defend East Asia against the intrusions of the predatory Western nations. But gradually, since China remained unable to prevent the Western nations from nibbling away at its borders, the Meiji leaders grew more ambivalent toward their largest neighbor. From the late 1870s, they began to regard the Ch'ing empire as their principal hypothetical enemy" [21, 22].

Basically, it's only because the Qing kept losing over the course of several decades and could not be regarded as a great power ally that the Japanese reevaluated their stance towards China. If the timetable gets pushed forward for Japanese modernization, then there's nothing really pointing to Japan not allying or supporting China and Chinese modernization to try and resist Western imperialism in the manner they tried to impose on Korea during the late 1800s before they lose all hope in China actually being a viable ally. It's far less costly to Japan to gain concessions that way than to force China at gunpoint and garrison their new holdings for fear of a reversal later, after all. That was the Japanese approach to Korea until Japan managed to force the Chinese and Russians out and had already gained so many concessions and business interests over the preceding decades (plus the relative stagnation of the native Korean economy) that direct annexation was economical.

All this to say, expansionistic Imperial Japan, at least the way Peter Duus put it, wasn't inevitable and was informed by the behavior and conditions of neighboring nations and Western expansionism. Curb the latter and see the former reform faster (potentially with Japanese assistance) without Western pressure bearing down quite as fast and East Asia might've avoided the worst of the atrocities of the 20th century.
Thanks for that, it was very informative.
 
Why would Napoleon III still get the throne if Napoleon I succeeds? Napoleon II doesn't get sent to Austria, which might butterfly away the tuberculosis that killed him OTL, and Napoleon stays married and in proximity of his wife, meaning he could easily have more children. And those children wouldn't have to try to rebuild France's prestige (heavily degraded by the collapse of its continental empire and Britain eclipsing France) via harebrained foreign expeditions.
Because Napoleon III is a wacky and delightful walking plot device to fuck with the timeline anyway I want. The man in real life put Henry Kissinger to shame in terms of getting into other people's and country's business. He is my favorite person in alternate history because writers can easily have him do bold, ridiculous crap that no other country ruler would do in a million years .
China getting stomped in the First Opium War didn't elicit much of a response from either Japan or China though. For Japan, they saw it happen, had the Dutch warn them to open up willingly or risk getting open up by force as well, and still didn't open up for another decade until the US came with the Black Ships. For China, they didn't start their Self-Strengthening Movement to reduce the gap between Europe and China until the 1860s, after another Opium War and a series of major rebellions like the Taiping and Nian Rebellions. China being defeated militarily by much smaller nations is nothing new (all the northern nomads, including the Jurchen and Manchu ancestors of the Qing) and they also haven't had the best naval track record either. They just usually dealt with it by paying the invaders off with tribute or some other concessions. The extent of the problem only became apparent after decades of increased incursions forcing changes to China's internal laws and social norms and the central government's inability to prevent those changes from being forced upon the empire.
Eh. I just want Japan to have the same "be predator or prey" mentality to spurr them to industrialization and imperialism. The specifics don't really matter. Considering I'm going to make the map regardless the lore doesn't have to be iron-tight.
Plus, there's no guarantee that the Opium War would even unfold in this TL. The OTL First Opium War was hugely controversial (the antiwar faction's motion failed by 9 votes, 262 votes for vs 271 votes against) and diverting more of Britain's fleet away from its already established interests in India while the French have previously threatened said interests via proxy wars in India and the invasion of Egypt would make it even less prudent to go to war with yet another major power (the British didn't have a clear picture of Qing weakness before the Opium Wars, IIRC).
Oh hell yes it's still happening. I don't care about logic or reason. The British Empire forced China to buy opium. It's stupid, ridiculous, and I will not have a boring timeline. Also there is no invasion of Egypt and Napoleon never got India back (though Napoleon III funnels cash and weapons into the sepoy mutiny to fun results).
According to Duus, "dagger pointed at the heart of Japan" was due not only to Korea's proximity to Japan, but also its weakness on the world stage. Meiji leaders were interested in "the maintenance of Korean independence," which required self-strengthening and reforms that the Japanese had implemented and would attempt to influence/force Korea to adopt in turn, rather than simply economically and militarily dominating the peninsula.

OTL Japan's initial motivation for taking Korea was because of the threat of Europeans (specifically Russia) using Korea as a staging point to threat Japanese interests, not because Korea itself was inherently a threat. The debate on whether to invade Korea in the 1870s was not one of conquest, but rather concerned a potential punitive expedition to force Korea to recognize the Japanese emperor instead of only the Chinese emperor, plus trade relations and such. A reordering of the old order, not a redrawing of the map, as it were. It was a minority opinion, regardless, and one without set plans or a unified goal. And when they did dominate Korea fully, they were satisfied with leaving it as a protectorate for a fair bit, rather than impose direct annexation.

The main issue was that Korea was seen as too weak to protect itself (not least due to the reactionary tendencies of the Daewongun, who dominated Joseon politics for a good part of the 1800s, and the factional conflict within the Joseon court itself) and their attempts to balance the Chinese, Russians, and Japanese off each other was seen as threatening to Japanese interests since it could've seen the peninsula fall under Russian domination (after the assassination of Queen Min, King Gojong took refuge in the Russian legation, for example). Plus, Korea had already been subject to punitive expeditions by the French, Americans, and Russians previously, so they saw it as a threat that only increased in magnitude over time.

Even in the 1880s, Japanese leadership hadn't decided whether to commit to a passive, nurturing role to encourage Korean reforms or to be aggressive and interventionist to force reforms. Actually dominating the peninsula was not one of the options at that point.

Japan started the Meiji Restoration in 1868 and annexed Korea in 1910, so it took 42 years to build up enough strength to impose itself on Korea while Korea largely stagnated. If Japan modernizes faster and tries to force Korea open before the Daewongun takes power in the 1860s, that sets the stage for Korea to not be as weak as it was OTL before Japan starts seeing Western imperialism as the only practical world order and one that they had to partake in.
I feel that isn't quite fair. Japan had tried to conquer Korea before. Even if Japan eyes just Manchuria, Korea is right there and a good target to get. And a Japan that is given significant loans by France has the capacity to outgun Korea.

I'll admit you have the facts and logic on me, but I wanna make a funny map regardless.
According to Duus in The Abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910, the initial response in Japan to China's defeats at the hands of the British in the 1860s was that "the revelation of Chinese weakness promoted the idea that Japan and China, which were as 'close as lips and teeth,' should stand together to defend East Asia against the intrusions of the predatory Western nations. But gradually, since China remained unable to prevent the Western nations from nibbling away at its borders, the Meiji leaders grew more ambivalent toward their largest neighbor. From the late 1870s, they began to regard the Ch'ing empire as their principal hypothetical enemy" [21, 22].

Basically, it's only because the Qing kept losing over the course of several decades and could not be regarded as a great power ally that the Japanese reevaluated their stance towards China. If the timetable gets pushed forward for Japanese modernization, then there's nothing really pointing to Japan not allying or supporting China and Chinese modernization to try and resist Western imperialism in the manner they tried to impose on Korea during the late 1800s before they lose all hope in China actually being a viable ally. It's far less costly to Japan to gain concessions that way than to force China at gunpoint and garrison their new holdings for fear of a reversal later, after all. That was the Japanese approach to Korea until Japan managed to force the Chinese and Russians out and had already gained so many concessions and business interests over the preceding decades (plus the relative stagnation of the native Korean economy) that direct annexation was economical.

All this to say, expansionistic Imperial Japan, at least the way Peter Duus put it, wasn't inevitable and was informed by the behavior and conditions of neighboring nations and Western expansionism. Curb the latter and see the former reform faster (potentially with Japanese assistance) without Western pressure bearing down quite as fast and East Asia might've avoided the worst of the atrocities of the 20th century.
China is still going to lose and falter. There will still be the First Opium War, there will still be civil wars in the 1850s and 1860s, and the second opium war and Britain and France walking over the Qing still happen.
 
It it possible, but unlikely; people very often rationalize even in the best of times, that what has just befallen their neighbors would not take them. The Opium Wars did not lead to the Meiji Restoration; the Perry Expedition did.
Japan still gets a Perry expidition, it just comes 20 years earlier and from a British Admiral instead of an American.
 
Because Napoleon III is a wacky and delightful walking plot device to fuck with the timeline anyway I want. The man in real life put Henry Kissinger to shame in terms of getting into other people's and country's business. He is my favorite person in alternate history because writers can easily have him do bold, ridiculous crap that no other country ruler would do in a million years .

Eh. I just want Japan to have the same "be predator or prey" mentality to spurr them to industrialization and imperialism. The specifics don't really matter. Considering I'm going to make the map regardless the lore doesn't have to be iron-tight.

Oh hell yes it's still happening. I don't care about logic or reason. The British Empire forced China to buy opium. It's stupid, ridiculous, and I will not have a boring timeline. Also there is no invasion of Egypt and Napoleon never got India back (though Napoleon III funnels cash and weapons into the sepoy mutiny to fun results).

I feel that isn't quite fair. Japan had tried to conquer Korea before. Even if Japan eyes just Manchuria, Korea is right there and a good target to get. And a Japan that is given significant loans by France has the capacity to outgun Korea.

I'll admit you have the facts and logic on me, but I wanna make a funny map regardless.

China is still going to lose and falter. There will still be the First Opium War, there will still be civil wars in the 1850s and 1860s, and the second opium war and Britain and France walking over the Qing still happen.
If France is acting that aggressively around the world Britain will seek allies, and act to oppose what the French are doing. They won't ally with them to fight Russia in the Crimea, or against China in the 2nd Opium War. Russia had already backed down in their attack on the Ottoman's, so the invasion of the Crimea was really gratuitous, and they didn't need the French. Even during the 2nd Opium War Britain didn't want the Chinese Empire to collapse. If the French are invading Indochina, and encouraging Japan to attack Korea, and China Britain will work to oppose them. Sinking a Japanese fleet could put a crimp in their plans. You can only push things so far.
 
If France is acting that aggressively around the world Britain will seek allies, and act to oppose what the French are doing. They won't ally with them to fight Russia in the Crimea, or against China in the 2nd Opium War. Russia had already backed down in their attack on the Ottoman's, so the invasion of the Crimea was really gratuitous, and they didn't need the French. Even during the 2nd Opium War Britain didn't want the Chinese Empire to collapse. If the French are invading Indochina, and encouraging Japan to attack Korea, and China Britain will work to oppose them. Sinking a Japanese fleet could put a crimp in their plans. You can only push things so far.
Realistically 100% yes. However this timeline is all about bending events that happened IRL to benefit France and by proxy Japan purely for fun. A "perfect storm" basically.

Sure I'll backtrack on joint French and British bonding by beating up China in the 2nd opium war, but the stage is set quite well. The British are able to execute the first and second opium wars just before the Sepoy Mutiny breaks out, and in this timeline thanks to Napoleon III pumping money and weapons, in, it succeeds. Contesting French and Japanese influence suddenly takes a backseat to the economic crisis that's about to slam into the UK for losing 2/3 of India.

On top of this the UK's population is going to be as volatile as Frances' IRL. The British intervene against the Decembrists in the 1825 Russian civil war (in this TL it's a bigger deal), agitating thier populace by supporting the clearly totalitarian side. The second strike is the economic contractions of the Sepoy Mutiny. Then when the British intervene in the US civil war on the side of the slaveholding confederates to stem the power of a much more anti UK US (1812 wasn't dandy in this TL), the people outright riot.

Basically, while dealing with this timeline, consider Murphey's Law. If it can go wrong for the British, it WILL go wrong. If it can go right for the French, Japanese, and whoever else I decide to make a cracked map on, it will go right.

Exibit A: Just posted. The scenario is half an excuse for halfway clean European borders.
 
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