Isaac's Empire

BIG NEWS FOR EVERYONE!

I have decided to put IE on hiatus, and go back to the very start of the TL. In essence, I will be stripping IE down to the bare bones, and rebuilding the TL from the ground up, making sure to give it a complete polish and repaint. The storyline will stay mostly unchanged, but you'll see new characters interacting with those you knew and loved in IE 1.0, more detail, foreshadowing, and, of course, much more of Pope Samuel. ;)

I hope you'll join myself and my excellent team of co-writers on the thread for IE 2.0 very soon. Watch this space. I look forward to seeing you all back where we started. Constantinople, 1057, here we come. :cool:
 
BIG NEWS FOR EVERYONE!

I have decided to put IE on hiatus, and go back to the very start of the TL. In essence, I will be stripping IE down to the bare bones, and rebuilding the TL from the ground up, making sure to give it a complete polish and repaint. The storyline will stay mostly unchanged, but you'll see new characters interacting with those you knew and loved in IE 1.0, more detail, foreshadowing, and, of course, much more of Pope Samuel. ;)

I hope you'll join myself and my excellent team of co-writers on the thread for IE 2.0 very soon. Watch this space. I look forward to seeing you all back where we started. Constantinople, 1057, here we come. :cool:

It seems like just yesterday…

*harp scales*
 
Just wanted to wish you good luck BG. Haven't commented too many times recently, but still one of my favorite TL's here. Can't wait for the 2.0. :)
 
BIG NEWS FOR EVERYONE!

I have decided to put IE on hiatus, and go back to the very start of the TL. In essence, I will be stripping IE down to the bare bones, and rebuilding the TL from the ground up, making sure to give it a complete polish and repaint. The storyline will stay mostly unchanged, but you'll see new characters interacting with those you knew and loved in IE 1.0, more detail, foreshadowing, and, of course, much more of Pope Samuel. ;)

I hope you'll join myself and my excellent team of co-writers on the thread for IE 2.0 very soon. Watch this space. I look forward to seeing you all back where we started. Constantinople, 1057, here we come. :cool:

Oh..... :D:D:D:D

Amazing!!

Go, go, go!!! :cool::cool::cool:
 
The days of Isaac Scribesbane. :D

It seems like just yesterday…

*harp scales*

Just wanted to wish you good luck BG. Haven't commented too many times recently, but still one of my favorite TL's here. Can't wait for the 2.0. :)

Oh..... :D:D:D:D

Amazing!!

Go, go, go!!! :cool::cool::cool:

I'll be interested in seeing how IE 2.0 goes BG…

Glad to see you're all looking forward to the new TL as much as I am. The first update will probably be up at the weekend at some point. Before then, I'm going to briefly skim through the early chapters of Michael Angold's The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204: a Political History , through Michael Psellus' account of Isaac's OTL reign, and perhaps the years 1050-1060 of Norwich, to properly reacquaint myself with his writing style that I try to imitate.

Are there any other books you feel I should cast a glance at?

Also, a quick question. Do you guys feel that in 2.0, I should use Greek names and terms, or English ones? For example, Kaisar or Caesar? Katepánō or Catepan?
 
Glad to see you're all looking forward to the new TL as much as I am. The first update will probably be up at the weekend at some point. Before then, I'm going to briefly skim through the early chapters of Michael Angold's The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204: a Political History , through Michael Psellus' account of Isaac's OTL reign, and perhaps the years 1050-1060 of Norwich, to properly reacquaint myself with his writing style that I try to imitate.

Are there any other books you feel I should cast a glance at?

Also, a quick question. Do you guys feel that in 2.0, I should use Greek names and terms, or English ones? For example, Kaisar or Caesar? Katepánō or Catepan?

Hmmmm.... Use both... Put the English meaning inside parentheses though...
 
I wish you good luck for the restarting of your timeline Basileus. I'll watch it with interests :)

On the question regarding the use of English or Greek terms... I think you should use Greek terms as they would more likely be used in a timeline where the Eastern Roman Empire/ the Byzantine Empire/Rhomania/Byzantium (pick whichever you prefer) survives and becomes the leading world power. And for those who would find it's all greek for them (I know, lame pun :p), you can put a note with the English translation. For example:

Isaac I Komnenos became Kaisar [1] of Rhomania in the year 1057 of our lord.
[1] Caesar
 
I wish you good luck for the restarting of your timeline Basileus. I'll watch it with interests :)

On the question regarding the use of English or Greek terms... I think you should use Greek terms as they would more likely be used in a timeline where the Eastern Roman Empire/ the Byzantine Empire/Rhomania/Byzantium (pick whichever you prefer) survives and becomes the leading world power. And for those who would find it's all greek for them (I know, lame pun :p), you can put a note with the English translation. For example:

Isaac I Komnenos became Kaisar [1] of Rhomania in the year 1057 of our lord.
[1] Caesar

What he said.

On sources: You seem to have a good set already, Basileus. This humble senator has no suggestions to make.
 
What he said.

On sources: You seem to have a good set already, Basileus. This humble senator has no suggestions to make.

My Senator.... Speaking of the great Roman government, Who can bestow this honor? The Senate or the Emperor or the Grand Logothete? Is this equivalent to a life peer in OTL's barbaric Britain?
 
My Senator.... Speaking of the great Roman government, Who can bestow this honor? The Senate or the Emperor or the Grand Logothete? Is this equivalent to a life peer in OTL's barbaric Britain?

The Emperor made me a Senator some weeks ago*, so I believe that makes his prerogative.

It seems roughly equivalent to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_peer#Honours as I am not a member of the Imperial government, though His Majesty holds me in high esteem. So I have added the word Honorary to signify that while His Majesty considers me of Senatorial status I do not perform any political role - instead, my title is solely at the pleasure of the right-beleiving and ever-victorious basileus.

* OOC: BG referred to me as "Senator" over MSN a while ago in response to my use of flattery of the old style, so I decided to adopt it as my user title. As I don't live within the Empire's past or present borders (I live in what would be the western coast of North Johania), I can hardly be a senator in any sense other than as an Imperial sign of esteem.

I figure its an appropriate powerless-but-important-sounding title for purposes of within the IC context. Something an emperor might give a barbarian friend of his. :D
 
The Emperor made me a Senator some weeks ago*, so I believe that makes his prerogative.

It seems roughly equivalent to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_peer#Honours as I am not a member of the Imperial government, though His Majesty holds me in high esteem. So I have added the word Honorary to signify that while His Majesty considers me of Senatorial status I do not perform any political role - instead, my title is solely at the pleasure of the right-beleiving and ever-victorious basileus.

* OOC: BG referred to me as "Senator" over MSN a while ago in response to my use of flattery of the old style, so I decided to adopt it as my user title. As I don't live within the Empire's past or present borders (I live in what would be the western coast of North Johania), I can hardly be a senator in any sense other than as an Imperial sign of esteem.

I figure its an appropriate powerless-but-important-sounding title for purposes of within the IC context. Something an emperor might give a barbarian friend of his. :D

I think the answer to this conundrum lies in the fact that you are an Honorary Senator of Rome. Let me explain:

Obviously, every Senator of Constantinople is an elected representative under the Psaras Constitution of a psepharchy (literally 'voting region') somewhere in the Interior (i.e. Mediterranean) Empire. There are 1000 of these Senators and most of the Government, and certainly the Grand Logothete, is drawn from the ranks of these Senators.

However, another prestigious, ancient, Senate exists. This is the Senate of Rome itself. With the real political power in Constantinople's hands, and real religious power in the hands of the Lateran Palace (the Pope's residence), or with the Kamemarios in the mid-14th century (see BG's latest story on CoJ), that means that the Senate of Rome, old and glorious though it is, is a powerless institution which nevertheless allows its members to swan around in special, extravagant, robes, be attended by lictors, be entitled to attend a grand annual reception at the Pope's residence etc etc. Our famous spymaster from the late 18th century, György Horváth, held the highest of these Roman Senatorial titles (see here), but plenty of others are available. I think you are a holder of one of these titles. The Basileus will confirm ... ;)

Since you reside on the western coast of Johannia, however, you may be entitled to more titles - perhaps in Tongva, Fusang or even the Confederacy depending on where you are - ByzantineCaesar has discovered the joys of these sorts of multiple offices thanks to being an inhabitant of Opará... :rolleyes:
 
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I think the answer to this conundrum lies in the fact that you are an Honorary Senator of Rome. Let me explain:

Obviously, every Senator of Constantinople is an elected representative under the Psaras Constitution of a psepharchy (literally 'voting region') somewhere in the Interior (i.e. Mediterranean) Empire. There are 1000 of these Senators and most of the Government, and certainly the Grand Logothete, is drawn from the ranks of these Senators.

However, another prestigious, ancient, Senate exists. This is the Senate of Rome itself. With the real political power in Constantinople's hands, and real religious power in the hands of the Lateran Palace (the Pope's residence), or with the Kamemarios in the mid-14th century, see BG's latest story on CoJ, that means that the Senate of Rome, old and glorious though it is, is a powerless institution which nevertheless allows its members to swan around in special, extravagant, robes, be attended by lictors, be entitled to attend a grand annual reception at the Pope's residence etc etc. Our famous spymaster from the late 18th century, György Horváth, holds the highest of these Roman Senatorial titles (see here), but plenty of others are available. I think you are a holder of one of these titles. The Basileus will confirm ... ;)

Ahhhh, so that's what his most glorious and gracious imperial majesty meant.

I still consider it a post purely as a mark of His Majesty's esteem. And "Senator of Rome by the grace of the Emperor." is a bit lengthy. :D
 
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BIG NEWS FOR EVERYONE!

I have decided to put IE on hiatus, and go back to the very start of the TL. In essence, I will be stripping IE down to the bare bones, and rebuilding the TL from the ground up, making sure to give it a complete polish and repaint. The storyline will stay mostly unchanged, but you'll see new characters interacting with those you knew and loved in IE 1.0, more detail, foreshadowing, and, of course, much more of Pope Samuel. ;)

I hope you'll join myself and my excellent team of co-writers on the thread for IE 2.0 very soon. Watch this space. I look forward to seeing you all back where we started. Constantinople, 1057, here we come. :cool:
Look forward to see version 2.0!:)
 
Won't be starting writing v2.0 until Saturday, probably, so any problems you guys had with the early chapters of v1.0- now is the time to air them. In particular, anyone who has any thoughts on the Papacy and the (OTL) Investiture controversy, please do share them.

v2.0's first chapter is thus far shaping up to be not dissimilar to that of v1.0, but more detailed, especially when it comes to the wars between John Komnenos and the Normans.

Please, please, give me some thoughts and ideas on the states of the IE world. Anyone with knowledge on the contemporary Spanish states, the Rus, Hungary, whatever. Please get suggesting! :)
 
More on Syria (in the eleventh century). Even if the empire winds up retaking it under Alexius, that seems to be where the Turks would go after the insignificant skirmish at Manzikert.

I don't have any specific suggestions beyond that, Basileus, but how that fares in this could use more emphasis for the "And outside the Empire..." part of the history.

This might be worth a read, on that note: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=123154
 
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Please, please, give me some thoughts and ideas on the states of the IE world. Anyone with knowledge on the contemporary Spanish states, the Rus, Hungary, whatever. Please get suggesting! :)

Well, I've been reading a book on Sweden in the 1200s, so I've got some idea of what it looked like in the period; suffice it to say, there have been a lot of chance events and other things that could have gone very differently. Especially the unified church is going to bring with it a world of change; the lack of religious differences from Russia, for example, is going to mean no crusades against Novgorod; as such, no Viborg, and probably a finalised border settlement in Finland. The different papacy might also have effects on the civil wars that so plagued the country from the death of Eric the Saint to the rise of Birger jarl, since the pope stepped in several times to enforce uniformity of opinion among his bishops in the north.
 
I quite enjoyed this series of alternate history chapters, but if you will permit a newcomer to the board to raise a few quibbles, I have to say there are certain aspects to it I find highly implausible. It looks almost as though the writer, Basileus Georgios, is subscribing to Marx’ idea of a natural evolution of social and political organization, so that certain institutions are inevitable. He introduces a middle class and a pro-democracy movement for no other reason that I can see other than the notion that it’s time for these things to appear. But there is nothing inevitable about the rise of these things. On the contrary, certain conditions have to exist, and exist for a long enough span of time, for ideas like this to take root, and develop a kind of cultural inertia, and thus become strong enough to survive on their own when conditions may change. And I don’t think the Byzantine Empire was very fertile ground for some of these ideas to take root. Let me explain why.

Let’s start with the rise of the middle class. It took a certain set of circumstances to create the middle class in Europe, circumstances which were very different from those in the Byzantine Empire. It took a certain lack of centralized political control, the beginnings of free markets, and a big demographic shakeup provided by the Black Death in the 14th century. What part did the lack of centralized political control play? A significant one. You see, medieval merchant traders and merchant towns played an enormous role in the development of the middle class, and the rise of the medieval merchant traders and town was facilitated, if not actually made possible by a lack of strong central control. States like the Roman and Byzantine Empires had always exercised a high degree of control over trade within their borders, and they raked a lot of the profits off (some trades, [e.g. silk in Byzantium] were even state monopolies). In the more politically fragmented parts of Europe (which, not coincidentally, is where merchant towns grew up first) the lack of an all-powerful state to siphon off so much of the profits meant the merchants could grow much richer from their ventures. This not only made them more daring, and willing to sink their capital in riskier ventures (which promised higher payoffs), it made them far more able to create other jobs that contributed to the rise of the middle class. As the merchants grew in wealth, so too did the towns where they went to do their trading. These towns along the trade routes became richer and richer, and some developed into great cities (e.g. Paris). This growing wealth translated into the increased prosperity of the local merchants, and also of the farmers in the area. There was more of a need for their services, and more and more money to be made each day. Many wealthy trading towns became virtually independent states, and with their wealth and power (power always comes with wealth) they found it possible to exempt themselves from the feudal system, and become even more independent. So that they could be free and rule themselves, town leaders might arrange to buy a charter from the local feudal lord, or from the king himself, and they were rich enough to make this an appealing bargain to a lord or king, despite the fact that this would mean a wealthy and practically independent entity in his territory. In return for their hefty payment, the town became a "free borough," ruled by its own council and led by a democratically elected mayor. Nothing like this would have been possible in the very centralized Byzantine state. And this is crucial, for it was in these prosperous and semi-independent towns that the middle class grew up.

I just don’t think that the emperors, with the revenue of a vast empire to draw from, would have been as open to being bought off to allow what were, in effect, semi-independent and very wealthy city states to sprout up within their borders. Nor would the merchants (and towns) have been able to grow nearly so wealthy in the first place under the tight control the imperial government maintained on trade. This really cuts the legs out from under one of the necessary conditions for the rise of the middle class.

The Black Death facilitated the rise of the middle class by creating a labor shortage in the wake of a major population falloff, in the cities, sometimes more than 50%, and in a few very hard hit areas, as high as 70-80%. The enormous labor shortage resulting from such a major decline in population made it easy for serfs, formerly unable to leave their lands, to migrate in search of higher wages. Numerous laws were passed all over Europe to try and prevent this, but the practice was so widespread, and the labor shortage so acute that such laws were easily evaded – Feudal lords or city officials in desperate need of labor would seldom turn over serfs who had come to them seeking greener pastures. And the extreme need for labor meant the laborers could command much higher wages than they had ever been able to before. Additionally, the very basis of the economy was affected, as a great deal of land, that had traditionally been the primary source of wealth, became worthless. Much land returned to wilderness when the owners perished and/or the serfs fled. And as economies evolved away from relying on land as a primary source of wealth and toward money economies, those peasants and former serfs, now commanding higher wages, began to emerge as a nascent middle class.

All of these factors together played a part in the rise of the middle class, and the only one of them which really still obtained inside the Empire was the plague. Perhaps the plague, by itself, with its effect on the source of labor would have permitted the rise of a middle class, but I am not sure that that factor alone would have been enough. But if a middle class ever had a chance to rise inside the Empire, it would have to be then.

The pro-democracy movement is, in an Imperial milieu, also unlikely. When you look at the whole scope of human history, throughout the world, it strikes you just how incredibly rare democratic movements are. You see such a movement in ancient Greece, and on a rather more limited basis in Republican Rome (the Roman Republic was really more of an oligarchy), and then not again for over a thousand years, and only in the West. I confess to less familiarity with Asian history than I should have, but I am not aware of any democratic societies developing outside the West, apart from, possibly, some independent “republics” in India from the 6th-4th centuries BC. But the evidence for these is sparse, and like the Roman republic, they were probably oligarchies far more than anything like real democracy.

A sentiment for democracy doesn’t just spring up spontaneously. It seems to require a certain set of conditions, and does not occur overnight. Athens’ democracy appears to have taken a couple of centuries, a least, to realize. And, of course, it still featured slavery – one of the reasons the citizens of the polis had so much time to devote to public affairs was that they had slave labor to take care of the drudge work of maintaining their city state.

It’s instructive to look at the development of democratic institutions in England, to see just how long it took, and just how fortuitous much of it was. England owes much of its democracy, in a great historical irony, to the rule of two very bad kings, who were both, of course, autocrats who would have regarded the idea of representative government with disdain, if not horror. The first of these was Richard I (the Lionhearted). Richard, magnificent soldier though he was, was a very bad king. He cared not a whit for England, except as a source of money with which to pay for his military adventures in France and in the Holy Land. He, spoke not a word of English, made his permanent home in Aquitaine, and spent just six months of a ten year reign in England. But this was fortuitous for the development of English democracy for two especial reasons. First, and perhaps most obviously, Richard’s absence from England allowed the nobility to grow more independent and more powerful than they might otherwise done. They got used to this sort of power and independence, and they liked having it, which meant, when a more active king came along, they were reluctant to give it up.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, Richard, since he couldn’t be bothered with governing himself, like a king was supposed to do, simply allowed his father’s excellent administrative apparatus to continue (after all, it was effective in running the country, and gathering the tax revenues he wanted to finance his campaigns). Had he taken a more active role in ruling over his kingdom, he might well have drastically rearranged Henry II’s administrative machinery, or swept it away entirely and replaced it with his own, as was common enough for kings to do in those days. But he allowed it to continue, and this allowed this proto-civil service to become entrenched. Most particularly, Henry II is the one who is generally considered to have laid down the basis for the English Common Law – a crucial development, as it not only curbed the power of church courts, but judge-made common law formed the basis of law before the existence of a parliament that created statutory laws. And most importantly, this also established the precedent in English society for a source of law other than the king himself – a significant development. Again, as I said, Richard, in his apathy for England, allowed this to continue, where a more active king might well have abolished such arrangements in favor of his own.

Then, in 1199, Richard was killed while besieging a castle in France, and his brother John took the throne. John wasn’t actually as bad a king as most people think. (His unenviable status in the popular imagination probably comes, as much as anything, from his being a villain in so many Robin Hood stories, where he’s usually depicted as being borderline insane.) But even if he wasn’t as bad as most people think, he was still a bad king, and whatever good qualities he possessed were more than balanced by his hot-tempered, treacherous, and vindictive character, that led him to tread on the rights of his barons, and overreach his authority (and his conspicuous lack of military success throughout most of his reign, in an era when the warrior king was the ideal, and battlefield successes could trump many other faults, led his contemporaries and successors not to overlook his severe flaws, as they did sometimes in other, more militarily successful bad rulers). John’s overreach, and his treacherous nature, led the nobility of England (who, remember, were already used to more freedom and latitude, thanks to Richard’s absence) to rebel, and they forced him to sign Magna Carta in 1215. Magna Carta, often heralded as the very foundation of English democracy, was indeed a remarkable document in its time. It didn’t extol the rights of the common man, or anything like that, but it did delineate definite limits on royal authority, and that, for that age, was indeed something extraordinary. It was also a pivotal first step in the evolution of a democratic, constitutional monarchy.

But it’s important to note that John signed Magna Carta only under duress, and never considered himself bound by it. He attempted to abrogate it the instant he felt safe in doing so, prompting his nobles to rebel again. They then invited Prince Louis of France (who had a claim to the English throne by virtue of his marriage to a granddaughter of Henry II) over, with the full intention of overthrowing John for him. John’s death in 1216, and the succession of Henry III put an end to that rebellion. But then the fact that Henry was a child, and didn’t reach his majority for another decade, again allowed time to grant legitimacy to Magna Carta, allowing it to become an accepted institution. When Henry III did reach his majority in 1225, the young king was constrained to acknowledge and confirm Magna Carta. If Henry III hadn’t been a child, and had he been able to exert his authority sooner or more strongly, the Great Charter, which became the foundation of England’s constitutional monarchy, might have been discarded, and relegated to the status of an historical footnote. And if John had been a better king, it might never have existed in the first place.

Just look here how many opportunities there were for things to play out differently, resulting in an outcome with no Magna Carta to establish limits on royal power in England. Then, of course, it took still more struggles in later centuries, including a civil war in the 1640s, and the overthrow of the monarchy to make still further inroads on royal power. Then still another civil war in the 1680s, to replace yet another would-be divine-right king, who wanted to rule as an absolute monarch, with no checks on his power, the way Louis XIV was able to do in France. (the comparison with France is interesting too, as back in the 12th century, when Henry II was ruling in England, the French king, Philip II was very far from an absolute monarch like Louis XIV – he succeeded, where John later failed, in increasing his power at the expense of the nobility, and where England was set on the path to constitutional monarchy, France was set on the road to royal absolutism). The urge toward autocracy died hard, and it took constant struggle, over centuries to strangle it, and keep some power in the hands of the people. Even in a land with a long tradition of limits on royal power, kings kept on believing they had a divine right to rule, and trying to throw those limits off.

This is why I just don’t see much chance for a democracy movement in the Byzantine Empire, with its thousand year-long history of autocratic rule by an emperor regarded as God’s vice-gerent on earth. Look at monarchs in 18th century France, and 19th century Russia or Austria-Hungary, who lived in ages when democratic popular sentiment was widespread and ever-growing in Western society, and who yet resisted democratic reform tooth and nail. Can you really imagine a Byzantine Emperor, every bit as convinced that God Himself ordained that he should rule, just up and deciding to cede power to the people in the Middle Ages – the pre-Enlightenment, pre-Renaissance Middle Ages, when divine right monarchy is almost universally considered the natural order of things. I just can’t see it.

Still, these objections aside, this was a fascinating alternate history, and I greatly enjoyed it.
 
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