Is the Myth of the Lost Cause a myth in of itself?

Neutral IS effectively doing so. The CSA was evil, and a “neutral” perspective on it would obscure that fact. Balance and neutrality are not inherently good.

You know, in no way does Ken Burns sympathize with slavery. He does sympathize with white southerners who have had their food stolen, a general who has been ordered to get his men killed in a foolish charge, to soliders who have to surrender after suffering starvation and marching barefoot for years, to a man, writing his wife from a prison cell and apologizing to her, if no one else.

It is right to despise slavery. But to not have any sympathy for men and women who were born in a time and place, and defended what they had been taught was right and good even if we judge it wrong, is in its own way inhumane.

That is all I think Ken Burns did.

And I also think that it quite likely that future generations, seeing the wasteful use of fossil fuels, consumerism, and the damage to the world they inherit, will despise us as deeply as we despise the antebellum South. What's more they would be right to.

Such thinking, makes me much more sympathetic to the person who on some level knew slavery was wrong, but wore gray or butternut because those soldiers were coming down his street to his home and community. I seriously ask, don't we suffer from the same moral blindness in many ways as Confederates and the same self justifications?

I'm kinda wonder if we're worse.
 
Yes it can, that is what I am doing, that is my point, that men have died for equal representation all across history.

But unlike the 13 state during the War of Independence, the US South DID have representation, not equal representation, but fair and just representation according to the Constitution (according to population in the House and each state equal in the Senate, etc). The fact that the South's percentage of the entire US population had reduced between the 1780s and 1860s is neither here not there constitutionally speaking provided they are still provided with their constitutional entitlement to representation. It doesn't provide any more of a legally justifiable reason to unilaterally secede from the US than, to use a completely random example, urban California's population dominance in 2019 would justify rural California from seceding (I don't have any figures, but I think I can quite confidently assume that SF/LA/SD's metropolitan area have a greater share of population now than say in 1919).

No state or region of the US (or elsewhere) has the right to an unchanging degree of representation - even in the Senate if more states are added, this necessarily "dilutes" the power of preexisting states - which is a view a lot of the justifications for secession published by the US Confederate states seemed to imply.
 
They did indeed secede because of Slavery but not as simply as "for" slavery which may seem like semantics, but its a very fine point imo, slavery as it existed in the South wasn't threatened, Lincoln made that very clear in his words and actions supporting the Corwin Amendment, however what was under threat was the balance of power between the free and slave states in congress .

Lincoln did it make it very clear he had no intention of getting rid of slavery, and it is just as clear the South didn't believe it because they were batshit crazy about slavery. Literally any restriction or attack on slavery was viewed as crushing there way of life and liberty forever.
 
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Tell that to South Carolina during the nullfication crisis.
Also didn't the US itself secede over silly-billy taxes? Or maybe taxes were the occasion to an even more real cause of representation in their countries legislature.
The nullification crisis had been a matter of settled law for nearly three decades by the time that hostilities broke out, and cannot realistically be considered a casus belli in this matter. And, yes, the United States did secede from the United Kingdom due partially to taxes, but also due to having no say in Parliament as to whether or not such taxes should be imposed. That's irrelevant to the argument, as my position is not that secession is never justified, but rather that that without slavery as a sticking point, the entire Civil War never would have happened.
 
Ok, well I suppose if you think that the CSA was "evil" I can respect that, however I think it's more morally complex than that, the USSR and Nazi Germany were "evil" the CSA? Well it seems more complicated than that.

No, it really isn’t.

No, it really isn’t. A country founded solely on the preservation of slavery IS evil. It really is that simple.

And not being as bad as Nazi Germany isn’t an achievement. Everyone in history has managed it other than the actual Nazis.

This. Slavery was enshrined in the CSA Constitution and was explicitly mentioned in multiple articles of secession. The CSA’s only purpose was the preservation of the Southern Planter Aristocracy as the dominant force in the South.

This video makes some good points:

 
Hey, here's an AH challenge: Come up with a POD in which the South abolishes slavery before, say, 1861, and then still have the Civil War somehow happen on time for non-ASB reasons. Takes some effort, huh?
 
Ok, well I suppose if you think that the CSA was "evil" I can respect that, however I think it's more morally complex than that, the USSR and Nazi Germany were "evil" the CSA? Well it seems more complicated than that.

You have under your name the description of President of the CSA, in addition you placed your location as Richmond Virginia the CSA. Combined with your denial of the role of slavery in the state's establishment (and other comments throughout the thread) I think its clear your actual position is of a fanboy. The selection of words you've used does not disguise your meaning and only compounds the problems with your argument.
 
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Such thinking, makes me much more sympathetic to the person who on some level knew slavery was wrong, but wore gray or butternut because those soldiers were coming down his street to his home and community. I seriously ask, don't we suffer from the same moral blindness in many ways as Confederates and the same self justifications?

I'm kinda wonder if we're worse.

I have sympathy for the individual Germans who suffered so much in the last half of WWII, and joined the Heer because the Allies were invading. Doesn't make me wonder if we're worse than Nazis.
 
As I understand it, the Lost Cause concept, if not exactly starting earlier, began to cement in place as a popular idea in the late 1800s and early 1900s. So there were a couple decades after the civil war where that sort of idea hadn't yet became dominant. And after reaching popularity, it still isn't like every single person agreed on it, the general revisionist idea in opposition to this lost cause is merely that it was a very common and dominant idea for a sizable period of time, before the revisionists came along to set the record straight and before those corrections began to really challenge the dominant lost cause narrative among the general population, politicians, historians, etc.
What was the South’s narrative in between the end of Reconstruction and the rise of Lost-Causeism?
the Jim Crow South (roughly 1890-1960)
What was the South like in 1877-1899?
 
I have sympathy for the individual Germans who suffered so much in the last half of WWII, and joined the Heer because the Allies were invading. Doesn't make me wonder if we're worse than Nazis.
I have tremendous respect for the leaders of the Khmer Republic for staying in Cambodia to face the rage of the Khmer Rouge even though they were violent xenophobes.
 

TDM

Kicked
I did not cut out the parts, I left links to all the documents in their entirety when I posted my argument, what they make clear is that the South viewed Northern hostility to slavery as dangerous to keeping a balance of power between the South (slaveholding states) and the North (Free States)

Which would still make it about slavery

as in "we need to keep slavery in order to not fall (further) behind the northern states", it's still an argument based inherently in having slaves
 
Literally right in my post, also you completely missed the point, I DID NOT SAY SLAVERY WAS A NOT A CAUSE OF THE CIVIL WAR! It was the occasion for the Civil War but not the causa causans, the fundamental cause was states rights
Also a State's Right to what? Equal representation in Congress!

Wait so beyond having an entire chamber dedicated to have each State have equal say, what you (and let's face it, it's you complaining, not your slaveholding idols) want would be the House of Representatives having equal representation by State too? So to hell with popular representation and let trees have as many votes as people? God your congressional representation is undemocratic enough by now, don't need to pile in with more
 
My point: I am not agreeing with the idea of the Lost Cause as we know it and refer to it, I am questioning however if there ever was really a unified myth of the Civil War and slavery in the American South, it seems to me even among Ex-confederates themselves there were numerous disagreements and views of the conflict between Redeemers, the Readjustors, Southern Republicans like Longstreet and Mosbey, and the hardline White Supremacists that came to power in the 1890's.

I think it is pretty clear to anyone who looks at American history, that there was a deliberate and determined effort to revise history on the part of the South. Yes, there were radical defectors or those who simply didn't care, but it is obvious that 'The War of Northern Aggression' was being painted in a very different light due to a political purpose by Southern states and elites.
 
Warning - the following post contains dangerous levels of generalisation. When looking at things like this, I'd take real care about using monolithic terms like "the South" or "the Union". This discussion really wants to sit at a finer level of granularity than that.

The Lost Cause Myth - it's not a myth, it's an apologia whose context has been lost because it was so successful. And it's not just an apologia for the Confederacy; it's also a whitewash for a Union that doesn't want to keep paying the costs of Reconstruction no matter what happens to black Americans afterwards.

The whole point of the romantic vision of the South was to enable a reconciliation between the white folks who returned to power down South post-Reconstruction, and the other white folks who were in charge up North, who had crushed their armies in the field, burnt their cities, and set occupying troops to control their conquest with martial law. When the US gives up on Reconstruction and the South drifts into the control of men whose wealth, influence, and new-returned power stem from slavery a generation before, there has to be some narrative that allows the losers to pretend not to be greedy evil traitors, and the victors to avoid the guilt of abandoning the reformation of the South to allow greedy evil traitors to reassert the control that hundreds of thousands of Americans died to take away from them.

So the the Lost Cause helps Northerners frame the ACW as being about secession, which was defeated, and not about slavery, which in the South of Jim Crow was... not so much - as long as you don't look too closely under the hood at what actually goes on in Hazzard County besides moonshining and the swaying of Daisy Duke's shorts.

The thing is, with the limited communications media of the next half-century, the myth once established loses its frame of reference; it gets traction at a grassroots level that doesn't question that it's to avoid the guilt of treason (since the grassroots are not the oligarchs who seceded or Redeemed) or of the failure to punish it (since they aren't Northern). They just drink the Kool-Aid of an antebellum Golden Age of chivalric noblesse oblige to grateful Negros who burden their white masters. And who wouldn't want to return to such a fantasy, rather than shoulder the shame of defeat or continuing erosion of wealth and influence that the South experiences as the North sees the Second Industrial Revolution and the American narrative shifts from Manifest Destiny and westward expansion to imperialism (Spanish-American War, Philippines, WW I, Banana Wars and China, etc) both of which leave King Cotton behind?
 

TDM

Kicked
You know, in no way does Ken Burns sympathize with slavery. He does sympathize with white southerners who have had their food stolen, a general who has been ordered to get his men killed in a foolish charge, to soliders who have to surrender after suffering starvation and marching barefoot for years, to a man, writing his wife from a prison cell and apologizing to her, if no one else.

It is right to despise slavery. But to not have any sympathy for men and women who were born in a time and place, and defended what they had been taught was right and good even if we judge it wrong, is in its own way inhumane.

That is all I think Ken Burns did.

And I also think that it quite likely that future generations, seeing the wasteful use of fossil fuels, consumerism, and the damage to the world they inherit, will despise us as deeply as we despise the antebellum South. What's more they would be right to.

Such thinking, makes me much more sympathetic to the person who on some level knew slavery was wrong, but wore gray or butternut because those soldiers were coming down his street to his home and community. I seriously ask, don't we suffer from the same moral blindness in many ways as Confederates and the same self justifications?


I take you point about cultural relativism

But I think the issue I have with this is given the reality of the suffering inherently involved in chattel slavery, chattel slavery was always wrong. It was wrong in C19th America just as it would be wrong now, and it wasn't made wrong because the CSA lost. And even if some had been brought up to believe it wasn't wrong at the time, well they were wrong about that.


Think about it like this would you make the same allowance for people in Germany running death camps even if they had been indoctrinated by a surrounding society that Jews (and the rest) were a living threat to all they held dear and thus a threat that had to be ended and that the very future of their people and county depended on doing so?

I agree that when you get down to the personal level there usually a range of reasons individuals fight, and some reasons are more worthy of sympathy than others, but ultimately why you fight isn't as important as that you are fighting.

I also agree that Burns didn't sympathise with slavery for the CSA, but rather humanised them in terms of making the point that humans do things and justify doing things due to a balance of all sorts of reasons (but then humanising people is not the same as sympathising with them)

I'm kinda wonder if we're worse.

Why would we be worse, because we're not sympathising with those chaps who fought for the CSA, or because future generations might damn us for not acting quicker on climate change?
 
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TDM

Kicked
You talked about slavery for that whole post and all those articles mention slavery pretty explicitly. What the fuck was the Civil War about then? Don't explain what is wasn't about. Explain what it was about

The right not to be told to not have slaves ;)?
 
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