Iron Duke - one turret less

[Redbeard]

In the thread about the Invincible class Hood 1944 mentioned the idea of removing the centre/Q turret on the Iron Duke class and utilise the extra space and displacement for speed and protection.

From measuring on my old Airfix 1/600 models of Warspite and ID respectively (this is really big science) it would appear that distance between B and X turrets are similar as are hull dimensions. So would it be possible to take out the old 29.000 shp machinery and squeeze in the 75.000 shp of the original QEs and achieve 24-25 knots?

I wouldn't worry about going down to 13,5", that would be more than enough for the jobs of the class, but the extra knots would tremendously increase their utility.

The biggest problem is however, if this is done in the 1920s you probably won't have the needed technology to also save weight to be utilised in extra (deck) protection - or?

That leaves another option: still remove the Q turret, but use the saved weight mainly to increase protection, AAA etc. IMHO that would still leave the RN with a ship far more useful than the OTL R class.

The biggest chalenge probably would be convincing anybody outside nerdy navy circles why you should scrap 15" armed ships and use money on removing guns on older 13,5" ships!

Perhaps arrange with some expert in insurance fraud to have a couple of the Rs burn/sink/explode or whatever...

 

[jsb]

Mostly agree but,

Perhaps arrange with some expert in insurance fraud to have a couple of the Rs burn/sink/explode or whatever...

This gets you out of jail free, WNT allowed replacement at 35,000t/16"! (others might object but you will certainly get a slow vanguard if you lose an R class, 35,000t and 4xtwin old 15" would get you much better protection and 25+Kn even in 20s)

if this is done in the 1920s you probably won't have the needed technology to also save weight to be utilised in extra (deck) protection - or?

The big jump was mostly from 1914-1924 even in 20s you can do much better than pre WWI, due to small oil fired boilers and geared turbines.

The biggest chalenge probably would be convincing anybody outside nerdy navy circles why you should scrap 15" armed ships and use money on removing guns on older 13,5" ships

I agree this is nearly imposable in when gun fire-power and throw weight are the dominate measure of navy strength.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

While its possible I can think of a number of things I'd rather the British spent resources on

Making the Revenges More habitable
Throwing more resources at the Cruiser problem
Hood + RnR having their armour schemes improved
Then in the 30s deep refitting all 5 QEs and all 3 BCs (only 3 and 1 carried out respectively in OTL)

Its the latter where ID and Tiger come in as they get recommissioned with a minimum serviceability refit while the more modern ships are being rebuilt - and at the end of that rebuilding cycle 1936+ the Modern Fast BBs are being laid down and as these are commissioned ID and Tiger are decommissioned and scrapped (or not if war looms)

Hopefully Hood gets a Warspite/Renown style large repair in the mid / late 30s and Britian enters 1940 with 5 Rebuilt QEs 2 Rebuilt Renowns and a Rebuilt Hood with 5 KGVs (possibly 6 if an extra unit is laid down instead of Vanguard which is not required with a rebuilt Hood) with a very worn out Tiger and an equally worn out Iron Duke ready for the scrap heap

Now with war they may get a stay of execution - but any work on them must be secondary to the other BB/BCs as well as those Building.

 

[Hood]

Most of my ideas are pure nonsense anyway..
I would much prefer

Hopefully Hood gets a Warspite/Renown style large repair in the mid / late 30s and Britian enters 1940 with 5 Rebuilt QEs 2 Rebuilt Renowns and a Rebuilt Hood with 5 KGVs (possibly 6 if an extra unit is laid down instead of Vanguard which is not required with a rebuilt Hood) with a very worn out Tiger and an equally worn out Iron Duke ready for the scrap heap

The general scenario would have to be different to allow the IDs to be rebuilt to this extent, as the British could spend their money on a lot of other things.
A way for this to happen is to give them to some of the dominions, and make them pay for the rebuilds, but again I don't know how plausible that is.

 

[jsb]

If you want real fun with removing a turret then make the dreaded R class get built as slow 5 turret ships like all the older BBs (or better still repeat QE with 5 turrets).

This would easily allow you to modernise them for more speed say 24-26kn for Rs (or 27-29 QEs)

 

[Zheng He]

Most of my ideas are pure nonsense anyway..
I would much prefer

The general scenario would have to be different to allow the IDs to be rebuilt to this extent, as the British could spend their money on a lot of other things.
A way for this to happen is to give them to some of the dominions, and make them pay for the rebuilds, but again I don't know how plausible that is.

Didn't dominion battleships count against British treaty limits? Plus, I have never quite been able to figure out why the dominions would want battleships beyond the cool factor.

 

[Hood]

If you want real fun with removing a turret then make the dreaded R class get built as slow 5 turret ships like all the older BBs (or better still repeat QE with 5 turrets).

This would easily allow you to modernise them for more speed say 24-26kn for Rs (or 27-29 QEs)

I like it..
Then you have QEs that wouldn't be much slower than Hood and R&R

 

[jsb]

Didn't dominion battleships count against British treaty limits?

Yes the for the treaties all of the GB empire was counted the same. (as was any other like Japan or US PI islands but only GBs had the ability realistically to have capital ships)

Plus, I have never quite been able to figure out why the dominions would want battleships beyond the cool factor.

Why not AUS/etc was a long way from GB and help. Nothing will hurt heavy surface raider, mainly the threat of CAs like a BC. Historically AUS/NZ and Malaya paid for capital ships and Canada thought about it.

 

[Hood]

Didn't dominion battleships count against British treaty limits? Plus, I have never quite been able to figure out why the dominions would want battleships beyond the cool factor.

I'm sure the British could be a bit sneaky and exclude the dominions. I don't think the Americans would have really cared, Japan might, but they will have deal with it, because they can't afford an arms race against Britain, or America

 

[Hood]

Why not AUS/etc was a long way from GB and help. Nothing will hurt heavy surface raider, mainly the threat of CAs like a BC. Historically AUS/NZ and Malaya paid for capital ships and Canada thought about it.

Australia seems like the best choice

 

[naraic]

Didn't dominion battleships count against British treaty limits? Plus, I have never quite been able to figure out why the dominions would want battleships beyond the cool factor.

Me neither.

Well Maybe Australia would want a Battleship or two if they were agreeing to a Fisher plan joint funding of a combined British Pacific Fleet.

Otherwise no real reason.

I could see Canada being deciding to invest in a trade protection fleet but even still I cant see anything more than 5 CVEs and 30 early Flower Ships.

 

[PMN1]

A few ideas here

http://warships1discussionboards.yu...-Duke-Fast-Battleship-rebuild-proposal?page=3

 

[I want to learn]

IIRC the 13.5" gun turrets and the 15" gun turrets had the same roller path diameter. I think this was originally to facilitate fitting the Queen Elizabeths with 13.5" guns if the 15" didn't work out. If you're going to go wild refitting an Iron Duke, there are spare turrets from the large light cruisers...