Industrial Warfare Questions

[Azardin]

I don't know how many of you guys have seen the map I was working on, but it's the setting for the novel my fiance and I have written. Its set in a 'hard' steampunk world, and as such I've been doing research on various industrial age weaponry and technology as well as classic steampunk.

By 'Hard' steampunk, I mean I am trying to capture certain cinematic elements of the genre, without straying too far from reasonable laws of nature as we know them. (There are a few exceptions, I'll list them if anyone would like to know).

With the attempt to keep at least one foot grounded in reality, I've been fleshing out the world in my spare time at work. I'll probably post what I've done eventually, but for now I am in need of assisstance.

As it is industrial level technology, I've been researching firearms that range from standard revolvers to repeaters to the equivalent of Gatling guns, but as is ever important in the search through Google, search terms do not always come to me. The same with Wikipedia.

I'm planning on sketching most of the small arms out, to go along with what I have already in my folder of drawings for the setting. Anybody have a URL, a famous weapon, military invention, etc. that I could then use to find pictures and information to adapt into what I have?

And if you need incentive: There are airships.

 

[ranoncles]

Not sure if this is what you are looking for but you could check out famous weapons like the:

• Dreyse Needlegun

• Chassepot bolt-action gun

• Maxim machine gun

• Reffye model mitrailleuse

• Krupp guns

Alternatively, you could research historical wars of the late 19th century and see what kind of weapons were used. The Crimean War 1953-1856, Franco-Austrian War 1859, American Civil War 1861-1865, Austro-Prussian War 1866 and Franco-Prussian War 1870-1871 are good examples.

 

[67th Tigers]

The Crimean War 1953-1856

British, French etc. had Minie Rifles, smoothbore cannon and the cavalry were still very much sabre cavalry.

Russians still used smoothbores etc.

For a steampunk era stick, they was consideration given to using Gas on Sebastapol....

Franco-Austrian War 1859

Minie rifles on all sides, French Arty was rifled muzzle loaders, the rest was smoothbore.

American Civil War 1861-1865

A mix of Minie rifles and smoothbores, with some breachloaders and a few (very few) repeaters, almost all used by cavalry. Arty is a mix of rifles and smoothbores (with both sides preferring the smoothbore).

Austro-Prussian War 1866 and Franco-Prussian War 1870-1871 are good examples.

The latter is a real breakpoint, both sides use breachloaders (the French a much better one in the Chassepot), both sides use rifled artillery etc.

 

[Azardin]

Thanks for the input guys.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for but you could check out famous weapons like the:

• Dreyse Needlegun

• Chassepot bolt-action gun

• Maxim machine gun

• Reffye model mitrailleuse

• Krupp guns

Alternatively, you could research historical wars of the late 19th century and see what kind of weapons were used. The Crimean War 1953-1856, Franco-Austrian War 1859, American Civil War 1861-1865, Austro-Prussian War 1866 and Franco-Prussian War 1870-1871 are good examples.

I have been researching those wars, though mostly my sources are limited to what I can find on google and wikipedia, due to my being in another country from my university library. But those names help a lot, I'm familiar with them, but as happens all to often when you need a word, it escapes me. The F-A War and A-P War didn't occur to me, again, thanks!

British, French etc. had Minie Rifles, smoothbore cannon and the cavalry were still very much sabre cavalry.

Russians still used smoothbores etc.

A good thing for me to remember then. Could I be safe to say, the major industrial powers would be either using rifles or switching over, while the less developed nations would be slightly 'backward'?

And I was thinking the cavalry would vary from nation to nation. For the older nations there would be a mix of heavy cavalry (like Curaissiers), medium (Dragoons), and light (Hussars). Some nations would predominantly use ranged cavalry, and others perhaps lancers or the like, depending on the culture and terrain.

For a steampunk era stick, they was consideration given to using Gas on Sebastapol....

Already written into the story. I'm thinking its going to be something like chlorine gas or mustard gas, but I'm not sure of the specifics. I'll have to look further.

Minie rifles on all sides, French Arty was rifled muzzle loaders, the rest was smoothbore.

A mix of Minie rifles and smoothbores, with some breachloaders and a few (very few) repeaters, almost all used by cavalry. Arty is a mix of rifles and smoothbores (with both sides preferring the smoothbore).

The latter is a real breakpoint, both sides use breachloaders (the French a much better one in the Chassepot), both sides use rifled artillery etc.

The setting is essentially a few years to a decade after the F-P War in terms of military technology (further ahead in other areas; aviation, rocketry). I also have repeaters being relatively commonplace amongst certain nations arsenals, mainly due to cultural and topographic reasons.

So you would say then that muzzle loading rifles would be out, except perhaps in the 'backward' nations, where they lack the capacity to produce them? And are the rifled artillery muzzle loaded or breachloaded?

 

[ranoncles]

If you are thinking in terms of a decade beyond the Franco-Prussian war, you might want to look into the Boer War(s) for inspiration or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.

As to weaponry, a decade after the battles of Gravelotte and Sedan, most armies had switched to breech-loading bolt action rifles. The most modern of them were switching to magazine fed rifles (e.g. the Mausers and Lee-Enfields of this world). Early machine guns would be common as support weapons.

For artillery, the French ‘75mm’ might be a good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_75_modèle_1897#Development

One of the reasons the French lost in the Franco-Prussian War was poor (cavalry) reconnaissance. After the war, practically all European cavalry became indistinguishable lance, rifle and pistol-armed medium cavalry, despite keeping their original names and designations (lancers, hussars, dragoons, cuirassiers, chevaux-legeres, chasseurs etc.).

If you are leaning towards ‘Victorian fantasy’ weapons, perhaps armoured trains with turreted guns, turtle submarines and tethered balloons with cannon (to provide fixed defences against Zeppelins) might be interesting.

You could also branch out into early versions of Holt tractor vehicles and have tanks and (half)tracks:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/unarmored-halftracks/unarmored-half-tracks.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Holt

If these still seem too modern, you can always have them run on steam….

 

[Azardin]

If you are thinking in terms of a decade beyond the Franco-Prussian war, you might want to look into the Boer War(s) for inspiration or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.

I'll probably take influences from those as well, and mix them together as plausibly as possible.

As to weaponry, a decade after the battles of Gravelotte and Sedan, most armies had switched to breech-loading bolt action rifles. The most modern of them were switching to magazine fed rifles (e.g. the Mausers and Lee-Enfields of this world). Early machine guns would be common as support weapons.

I'm thinking I'm leaning towards the chassepot, it looks to be relatively similar in technology to the needlegun, but superior in rate of fire, without having too superior a rate of fire. But further research is needed. I'm also thinking that while smokeless powder and the like (guncotton and such) will have been invented, they are perhaps still a few years from being implemented. However events in the story could alter that.

For artillery, the French ‘75mm’ might be a good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_75_modèle_1897#Development

Thats coming too late for the setting, although perhaps I can take design elements from it.

One of the reasons the French lost in the Franco-Prussian War was poor (cavalry) reconnaissance. After the war, practically all European cavalry became indistinguishable lance, rifle and pistol-armed medium cavalry, despite keeping their original names and designations (lancers, hussars, dragoons, cuirassiers, chevaux-legeres, chasseurs etc.).

So the old order was effectively wiped clean and replaced with something more 'catch-all' than specialized? I'm curious about the incentives that would cause the leaders to make such a decision. Obviously the lack of reconnaissance is one; heavy cavalry are nice, but you need somewhere to have them smash into. This also sounds to me like a trend towards mobility, which makes some sense as I believe such ideas were also carried (at least in limited form) into tank warfare.

If you are leaning towards ‘Victorian fantasy’ weapons, perhaps armoured trains with turreted guns, turtle submarines and tethered balloons with cannon (to provide fixed defences against Zeppelins) might be interesting.

There are elements of the fantastic, but few and far between. I would say in certain arenas armored trains would be useful, though primarily as a sort of 'convoy' system; instead of men with guns escorting a wagon train, men with guns on a train. Unfortunately the vulnerability of such a vehicle is the tracks, so it would be a primarily defensive weapon.

Turtle submarines would be relatively primitive from the standpoint of the industrial base. I might lean towards something similar to the OTL Nautilus, if I decide to include submersibles.

Tethered balloons are something (in the story) that have been around a long time, and which helped to accelerate some elements of air travel. If they are still used in the current setting, its primarily as a high elevation point for reconnaissance during a battle or for civilian purposes. And I don't think a balloon would be that stable a platform for a cannon. Rockets, perhaps, but I have the image in my head of the balloon capsizing if it had large guns. Small arms, on the other hand, are possible.

You could also branch out into early versions of Holt tractor vehicles and have tanks and (half)tracks:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/unarmored-halftracks/unarmored-half-tracks.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Holt

If these still seem too modern, you can always have them run on steam….

Unfortunately those are all too modern. In regards to tanklike vehicles, I'm not all that concerned about, as I find them easier for me to conceptualize than accurate guns.

I'll have to write up what I have for concepts, so its easier to understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Thande]

Just out of interest, Azardin, I have also done a steampunk alien world, and if you're interested in nicking any of my ideas , check out the first chapters of this.

 

[Azardin]

My world isn't really alien, its human; a step to the back and side of a parallel Earth. But I'm going to have to get around to reading the whole Moonstruck trilogy, its really good work Thande!

 

[pieman3141]

The Boer War might count as well. Check out the electric gatling gun made in the early 1900s.

I've always understood it that the 1930s was the last gasp of the industrial age before we started going towards the electronic age. Check out some tech from those eras, and switch the power to steam or something.

 

[Riain]

The French had a number of artillery pieces which might fit steampunk genre. I don't know that much about them, but they were breech loaders with mechanical reciol buffers I think. Large numbers were hauled out of storage and used in the first year of WW1 so there might be plenty of info around, I've never been interested in them enough to look.

 

[Azardin]

Thanks for the input.

I'm going to list the general types of weapons that I can pull off the top of my head that I'm either using in the story or in the universe. And forgive my terminology at times, its just a classification system for me to remember it easier. And it is by no means a complete list.

Melee Weapons:

Pretty much everything we used in OTL at the time, but perhaps with some differences, primarily due to culture, location and my say so

Firearms:

Small arms (Pistols up to Carbines)
Revolvers are the main style that comes to my mind. I'm curious as to other realistic forms of handguns that might arise in this sort of setting. So far my perusals of Wikipedia have pretty much only mentioned revolvers. In OTL they are a cavalry, officer, and artilleryman weapon.

Medium arms (Carbines up to Rifles)
In this group I think will be the greatest diversity in types. Nation A makes theirs, and they might sell it to their allies, which may or may not have their own models. Repeaters are included in this group, and are a common weapon for cavalry and scouts. Rifles are the mainstay of infantry armies, probably bolt actions like the chassepot or so.

Heavy Arms (BFG's)
This is where I classify the rocket launcher, as in theory I believe it is relatively simple to manufacture a rifled tube (if you can make a gun barrel at least) as well as manufacture relatively simple rockets. It would be a two man weapon, one to hold and fire, the other to load. Its role is as an anti-infantry and anti-emplacement weapon (no tanks yet, but an effective mobile artillery is always useful)

Artillery:

Light Art.
Ranging from Gatling type guns up to light cannon and rocket artillery (perhaps like congreve rockets). Antiaircraft cannon and rockets included as well. Relatively mobile field pieces.

Medium Art.
Found on the field, but usually only in areas where the front is not mobile, like a siege or a prolonged battle. Also I'd include shipboard cannon in this category when they are under a certain calibre (like Five inch guns, perhaps).

Heavy Art.
Siege guns, Paris Guns, Big Berthas. The meanest popguns that an industrial nation can make. Rather immobile, unless on rails. Long ranges, high damage.

 

[Hendryk]

Melee Weapons:

Pretty much everything we used in OTL at the time, but perhaps with some differences, primarily due to culture, location and my say so

Melee weapons are liable to be used quite a bit of the time by at least one side in colonial settings and Boxer-type situations. Incidentally, if you're looking for inspiration for featuring China in a steampunk world, do check out the "Once Upon A Time In China" series and the more recent "Fearless" (about real-life martial arts master Huo Yuanjia).

Firearms:

Small arms (Pistols up to Carbines)
Revolvers are the main style that comes to my mind. I'm curious as to other realistic forms of handguns that might arise in this sort of setting. So far my perusals of Wikipedia have pretty much only mentioned revolvers. In OTL they are a cavalry, officer, and artilleryman weapon.

How about pepperboxes and those big multi-barrel handguns made by Sharps, Lancaster and other manufacturers?

There's also the Remington Mk. III, actually a flare gun, but it could fire a .10 gauge shotgun cartridge as well.

 

[Azardin]

Melee weapons are liable to be used quite a bit of the time by at least one side in colonial settings and Boxer-type situations. Incidentally, if you're looking for inspiration for featuring China in a steampunk world, do check out the "Once Upon A Time In China" series and the more recent "Fearless" (about real-life martial arts master Huo Yuanjia).

I had such images in my head, although I will be the first to admit my knowledge of Chinese culture and history (short of relatively recent times) is rather limited. My thoughts as of now (which are entirely conceptual) is to have an area like China but one that wasn't a unified state for large parts of its history. And at the current age, the "Chinese" would have some similar technologies to the "West", but most of which were developed quite independently. And while I do know that happend IOTL, I'm thinking here in terms of the more 'steampunk' elements of technology.

How about pepperboxes and those big multi-barrel handguns made by Sharps, Lancaster and other manufacturers?

There's also the Remington Mk. III, actually a flare gun, but it could fire a .10 gauge shotgun cartridge as well.

Thanks for the pictures! Between them and the names that'll give me quite a help.

And were I to write up something describing the "Chinese", do you think you might give it a look over Hendryk?

 

[Hendryk]

And were I to write up something describing the "Chinese", do you think you might give it a look over Hendryk?

Sure, no problem.

 

[ranoncles]

Thanks for the input.

I'm going to list the general types of weapons that I can pull off the top of my head that I'm either using in the story or in the universe. And forgive my terminology at times, its just a classification system for me to remember it easier. And it is by no means a complete list.

Melee Weapons:

Pretty much everything we used in OTL at the time, but perhaps with some differences, primarily due to culture, location and my say so

Firearms:

Small arms (Pistols up to Carbines)
Revolvers are the main style that comes to my mind. I'm curious as to other realistic forms of handguns that might arise in this sort of setting. So far my perusals of Wikipedia have pretty much only mentioned revolvers. In OTL they are a cavalry, officer, and artilleryman weapon.

Medium arms (Carbines up to Rifles)
In this group I think will be the greatest diversity in types. Nation A makes theirs, and they might sell it to their allies, which may or may not have their own models. Repeaters are included in this group, and are a common weapon for cavalry and scouts. Rifles are the mainstay of infantry armies, probably bolt actions like the chassepot or so.

Heavy Arms (BFG's)
This is where I classify the rocket launcher, as in theory I believe it is relatively simple to manufacture a rifled tube (if you can make a gun barrel at least) as well as manufacture relatively simple rockets. It would be a two man weapon, one to hold and fire, the other to load. Its role is as an anti-infantry and anti-emplacement weapon (no tanks yet, but an effective mobile artillery is always useful)

Artillery:

Light Art.
Ranging from Gatling type guns up to light cannon and rocket artillery (perhaps like congreve rockets). Antiaircraft cannon and rockets included as well. Relatively mobile field pieces.

Medium Art.
Found on the field, but usually only in areas where the front is not mobile, like a siege or a prolonged battle. Also I'd include shipboard cannon in this category when they are under a certain calibre (like Five inch guns, perhaps).

Heavy Art.
Siege guns, Paris Guns, Big Berthas. The meanest popguns that an industrial nation can make. Rather immobile, unless on rails. Long ranges, high damage.

You seem to overlook the independent weapon designers. Many weapon designers (eccentric, innovative or just plain crazy ) were coming up with all kinds of new weapons. Quite often, they would be ignored by their own national armies but prove successful in acquiring foreign buyers.

Up to 1866, nobody really bother with the quality of the rifle issued to the common soldier beyond the widespread introduction of minie balls and the rifled musket or the quality of the artillery as by and large, the weapons fielded by countries were usually quite equal in performance. It simply did not matter which individual brand of weapon was used.

Then came the shock of the Austro-Prussian War and the overwhelming superiority of the Dreyse needle gun (the first successful bolt action gun) and the rather less heralded Austrian breech-loading artillery, both which totally outclassed their rival weapons. This led to an unprecedented arms race between all European nations, based on what they seemed to lack. For instance, Austria acquired bolt-action rifles after the 1866 war while Prussia bought new Krupp breech-loading guns. The French hastened to introduce the Chassepot rifle and the ‘secret’ machine gun which they expected would provide a decisive advantage. Every country, from England to the Ottoman Empire, from Spain to Russia hastened to get modern weapons lest they be ‘Austrianized’ on the battlefield. If a country could not design and build these weapons themselves, they would simply invite a clever weapon designer over or buy them from foreign sources. It was the dawn of the international arms sales. At one point, the Russian army had 4 different foreign designed and produced rifles equipping their line infantry.

There was also quite a lot of experimentation going on with some weapon systems inevitably proving to be dead-end designs. One wargame covering 19th Century Warfare I used to play modelled this by determining the actual combat value of a nation’s army at random at the start of each war because nobody really knew how effective their latest generation of weapons would be.

As to man portable rocket launchers as infantry heavy weapons, that seems a tad too modern IMO unless you model them on Chinese or Congreve rockets with an inherent lack of precision ( used as a scare weapon or for comic relief). More typical would be WWI style weapons originally designed for trench warfare like flamethrowers (or throwers filled with gas or unpleasant liquids) and mortars.

For more weird stuff, have you considered camel guns and elephant guns ?
Perhaps this might serve as inspiration: http://www.camelphotos.com/war_camels.html

 

[Hendryk]

This thread has prompted me to enquire further into the concept of multi-barrel firearm. It turns out that one Robert Hillberg gave some thought about purpose-made "insurgency weapons" for use by inexperienced guerrillas in the 1960s, and his guns are based on simple, low-tech designs that one may well come across in a steampunk setting. They just apply the pepperbox concept to the shotgun:

The Winchester Liberator:

The Colt Defender:

 

[Azardin]

@ Ranoncles

I was just making generanlizations above, were I to go into specifics, I'd need a lot more space. Although I don't think I took into account the possible variability of the weapons, primarily because having to stop and create a name for it would have slowed down the writing.

But perhaps I should try to make some more outlandish firearms, knowing that they might work a few dozen times, but ultimately aren't going to be feasible?

And as for rockets, they are definitely not designed as comic relief. The nations have had the necessary foundation knowledge building up for some time. That said, they aren't anywhere near as accurate as anything post WW2. But with stabilizing fins and a relatively homogeneous fuel, you can aim it at something and hit something within a radius of a few yards. I would think its mostly used against big relatively immobile targets, like columns, trains, emplacements. You wouldn't use it against a fast moving wagon unless you were really close.

And as for cannon/elephant mounted guns, they don't appear in the story, but certainly I could find a place for them in the world.

@Hendryk

I like those pictures, they don't exactly fit into the setting of the story...but the sequel (and the D20 mods I hope to one day run in it) should give some nice opportunities for pieces like those.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

In the Victorian era, the Powers sort of had an understanding that only obsolete weapons could be sold to "colonial" areas, like Africa. It was possible for "sort of" powers like the Ottomans to obtain the best weapons.

For instance, in the Russo-Ottoman War of 1877-78, the Ottomans had superior everything to to the Russians - steel Krupp artillery (most of the Russian art. was bronze), and vastly superior infantry rifles. The Russians used the Krnk rifke, which was converted from muzzle-loaders and was a contract awarded to the lowest bidder, probably not too morale-boosting for the troops, while the Ottomans used a licensed version of the British Martini-Henry rifle called the Peabody-Martini, produced by the Providence Tool Company in Rhode Island.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Peabody&M/Peab&Mart.htm

They also had a modern ironclad fleet ordered mostly from Britain and France.

This was pretty much the only major war fought in the "Steampunk Era", so it's worth looking into. It was the first use of self-propelled torpedoes in combat, and the first "modern" war wherein it became clear that fixed defenses were nearly invulnerable without the skilled coordination of artillery and infantry.

Plus, "Peabody-Martini" rifle sounds way too steampunk to ignore.

 

[Azardin]

In the Victorian era, the Powers sort of had an understanding that only obsolete weapons could be sold to "colonial" areas, like Africa. It was possible for "sort of" powers like the Ottomans to obtain the best weapons.

I was aware of this, but hadn't really thought about it much in conjunction with the setting. More of an on and off thought.

For instance, in the Russo-Ottoman War of 1877-78, the Ottomans had superior everything to to the Russians - steel Krupp artillery (most of the Russian art. was bronze), and vastly superior infantry rifles. The Russians used the Krnk rifke, which was converted from muzzle-loaders and was a contract awarded to the lowest bidder, probably not too morale-boosting for the troops, while the Ottomans used a licensed version of the British Martini-Henry rifle called the Peabody-Martini, produced by the Providence Tool Company in Rhode Island.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Peabody&M/Peab&Mart.htm

They also had a modern ironclad fleet ordered mostly from Britain and France.

Go RI! I think that that war certainly deserves a good look, as it should be a nice place to pick out some weaponry data, as well as tactics and such.

This was pretty much the only major war fought in the "Steampunk Era", so it's worth looking into. It was the first use of self-propelled torpedoes in combat, and the first "modern" war wherein it became clear that fixed defenses were nearly invulnerable without the skilled coordination of artillery and infantry.

Plus, "Peabody-Martini" rifle sounds way too steampunk to ignore.

Can't argue with that, and I'm definitely going to need to read up on that war. Thanks Abdul!