Improving the 'Graf Zeppelin' Aircraft Carrier - ship and class
- Thread starter Amartus
- Start date
Ah - sorry I thought it was an escort carrier not a Light carrier
Yes so the Germans could have converted 2 of their Heavy Crusiers that were never completed to 'light carriers' by 1943 - the Seydlitz and Lützow (conversion had already started on Seydlitz) in the same way that the Cleveland's were converted to Independence class.
However the Independence class was a clever design - driven from the very top by a leader who understood the game properly - and built by a nation with not only the resources but also the knowhow
I would suspect that the Seydlitz and Lützow conversions would have been a less effective design that the Independence class despite being heavier.
The Bf-109T was intended to get folding wings. The Ju-87C got folding wings.
McPherson
Banned
Very Russian mentality, or should one say a Russian mentality learned from the Germans?
The reason for the undersized, top heavy, too cramped awful Independence Class CVLs was a panic measure, not good planning. The existing US carrier fleet was massacred by combat attrition. The Saratoga was practically a yard queen because every time she was sent out, she ate a torpedo. The Yorktowns were tough ships, but even they could be dedecked and torpedoed and there were not enough of them. The Essexes were improved Yorktowns, but they were still being built and it would be a year (43-44) before enough of them were ready and trained up. In the meantime, the war was on and there were all these Cleveland class cruisers in the queue. These were started as conversions pre-war, but when the carrier slaughter began, these conversions were bumped to the head of the line and rushed willy nilly. They were ready a year ahead of the Essexes. These are the very ships I mentioned as being the fighter escort carriers for the main fleet carriers that the USN tried and as not a good idea. They sort of worked in the role, half arsed; but they were horrible ships to operate off of due to the compromises in space, fuel bunkerage, flight deck size and limited aviation control facilities.
Could the Fw-190 had made a good jack of all trades carrier aircraft?
Yes.
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Panic measure they may have been but they did provide a quick fix to carrier numbers mid war and just under half the US Aircraft at the Turkey shoot flew from 9 of these ships
While they might not have been great not having them would have been far far worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Zeven_Provinciën_(C802)
Thanks for the heads up !
I didn't realise she was launched in 1941...more advanced. The other was not launched until 1944.
Instead of the ELBE programme in 1942/43 , redirecting that effort ; then all three cruisers could have been completed -as fast CVE- by 1943.
I'm fairly sure that's a joke, but I just don't get it. Would you mind explaining, for those of us who are a little hard of thinking in the early mornings?
20% more wing for more lift when operating from a Carrier - don't think it was a joke!
Sure thing. Operations off a carrier are different, and a 49 lb wing loading is too heavy and needs to be reduced 20%. The a/c weight cannot be reduced so the wing area must be increased. Simple as falling off a stool.
marathag
Banned
F6F Hellcat had 334 sq.ft of wing with a span of 42 feet with 37.7 lb loading, 190 had 197 sq.ft. with 34 ft span
That bigger wing allowed much fuel to be carried, so had 945 mile range vs 500 for the 190, 250 gallons to 80
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The Independence class was indeed top heavy, cramped, and pain in the ass for crews, at least compared to the Essex class. None of that matters, at all. They were designed to perform a task, and the class performed that task beyond all reasonable expectation. Each Independence class ships carrier 25 Hellcats and 9 TBF. Since the Dive Bomber was effectively a dead end by early 1944 (you will find that more than one VS/VB squadron transitioned, sometimes while still in familiarization with type, from SC2B to F6F while being redesignated as a VF) each CVL carried what amounted to a 3/4 VT squadron, a squadron of Dive Bombers, and a 9 aircraft CAP/inbound strike escort.
Warships tend to be crappy places to live, even in peacetime. American fleet boats had to hot bunk in some classes because there weren't enough crew spaces to go around (IIRC modern 688 class SSN have exactly one spare bunk). Carriers today are cramped as hell, as are DDG and CG. Doesn't have anything to do with how effective they are as weapons platforms.
BTW: The Yorktowns were only tough vs bombs, and against vertical hits they were tough indeed. Against torpedoes, that was not so much the case. Yorktown and Hornet were both lost to torpedoes, as was their smaller sibling Wasp. This was due to a design that reduced underwater protection to allow more ship for available tonnage. Enterprise survived the war thanks to never being torpedoed (she also received extensive refit to the underwater protection in 1943).
Even if you give the Germans a couple of reasonably capable aircraft carriers on 1 September, 1939 they are going to be seriously handicapped by the fact that the airwing, aircraft procurement, etc will be managed by the Luftwaffe and der Dicke. The FAA was severely hampered by this problem, and the "giving back" of seaborne aviation to the RN in the 30's only partially solved the problem. Coastal Command, still run by the RAF, only got needed assets and priorities during the war in the face of the reality that failure to deal with the U-Boats was going to result in losing the war. Even so Harris and others always tried to sell the answer to the U-Boat problem was not better MPA but rather more bombers to hit shipyards and U-Boat pens. MPA and maritime attack was always low on the scale for the Luftwaffe, and the air element for carriers would be even lower. To make effective airwings would require devoting significant resources to pilot/crew training, developing aircraft suitable for carrier operations, and issues like control of air operations when deployed. Absent these issue being dealt with, even the best carriers will be less than effective.
It is worth noting that while many aircraft initially designed for carrier operation have been quite effective as land based aircraft with relatively minimal changes but the other way has rarely worked well and has generally been a stopgap measure (Seafire, F-111, F-86 modifications, etc). In terms of air crew, a carrier qualified pilot can land on any runway, without significant extra training even Adolf Galland can't land on a carrier. Dive bombing a bridge which is stationary is not the same as dive bombing a ship moving at 25-35 knots and maneuvering at the same (yes trains move but they are on a track...). All of this requires a multilevel commitment to naval aviation which Göring was never signing on to.
It is worth noting that while many aircraft initially designed for carrier operation have been quite effective as land based aircraft with relatively minimal changes but the other way has rarely worked well and has generally been a stopgap measure (Seafire, F-111, F-86 modifications, etc). In terms of air crew, a carrier qualified pilot can land on any runway, without significant extra training even Adolf Galland can't land on a carrier. Dive bombing a bridge which is stationary is not the same as dive bombing a ship moving at 25-35 knots and maneuvering at the same (yes trains move but they are on a track...). All of this requires a multilevel commitment to naval aviation which Göring was never signing on to.
I'm going by memory here - how well did WW 2 carriers in general handle being torpedoed? Saratoga survived several torpedoings. Soho took a pounding that might have sunk a Midway. Victorious (?) was torpedoed and knocked out.
depends a lot on the crew who do emergency repairs, pumping and fire control. Shoho didn't do so well since it sank not half an hour after it was attacked, but even with 7 torp hits because its crew and its design kept it afloat as long as they could, working tirelessly. Whilst Shinano for example, which was 60 meters longer than Shoho, sunk after 4 torps hits because its design was crappy and its crew incompetent.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Shinano had the issue that she was not complete, the majority of her watertight doors had not been installed yet when she was sunk, that has to be considered
It was a mixed bag.
The Yorktown class lost two of three, plus the one subclass in Wasp. Lexington went down after two torpedo hits and two bombs, but the loss can be traced to damage control failures to find and seal damage to the avgas bunkers while Saratoga was, as noted a positive torpedo magnet, being hit by a single torpedo twice in 1942, but survived each time before being put out of action in 1945 after half a dozen bomb hits sent her back to the U.S. (under her own power) for what turned out to be a refit/modification that resulting in her being designated as a training carrier.
CVL Shoho was lost at Coral Sea after being hit by 13 1,000 pound bombs and at least two, perhaps as many as 10, torpedoes (the ship only displaced 11,000 tons). The CVL Ryujo sank after three bombs and one torpedo. Shokaku was sunk by three, maybe four, torpedoes while Zuikaku was effectively torn apart at Cape Engano (part of the Leyte Gulf engagements) being hit by at least seven torpedoes and nine bombs (the sank her a lot) with the CVL Chiyoda suffering the near identical fate in the same engagement while her sister Chitose sank after three air dropped torpedo hits earlier the same day. Taiho was sunk by a single torpedo hit, but even more than the case of the Lexington, the loss was due to a D/C fiasco. Unryu sank after two torpedoes, launched by USS Redfish in separate attacks about 15 minutes apart. Akagi, Hiryu, Kaga and Soryu were all scuttled by IJN torpedoes after being burned to hulks by bomb its at Midway. Shinano was sunk by submarine torpedoes, but she was still lacking, among other things, the rubber seals for her watertight doors.
HMS Courageous sank after two hits from U-29. HMS Indomitable survived a singe aerial torpedo hit. HMS Eagle sank in under five minutes after four torpedo hits from U-73.
Y-TOWN took four torpedoes before she went down along with two bomb hits and a couple of near misses and that was on top of the damage from Coral Sea. HORNET took three bombs, three torpedoes, and two suicide planes. It was the third torpedo that was fatal for HORNET. She was under tow and power was almost restored. If those last nine Kates don't find her (and only one scored a hit) she is probably saved.
WASP IMWO is an outlier, she was hit at the worst possible time by three torpedoes when she was conducting flight operations and her fuel lines were fuel of AVGAS. That torpedo salvo at that moment sinks any WWII carrier to include USS MIDWAY.
Both INTREPID and LEXINGTON (CV-16) took torpedo hits and had to go back to Pearl Harbor.
Torpedo strikes on US carriers were rarely fatal by themselves and often survivable. The ones that were sunk by torpedoes took multiple hits on top of damage from other means (bombs or suicide planes) or were caught at the wrong time like WASP.
For British carriers, EAGLE took like four torpedoes so she sank (duh), I was under the impression that poor damage control killed ARK ROYAL (correct me if I am wrong). A single torpedo sent HMS INDOMITABLE to Virginia for a few months. COURAGEOUS was sunk by two torpedoes but she had a pretty light hull.
WASP IMWO is an outlier, she was hit at the worst possible time by three torpedoes when she was conducting flight operations and her fuel lines were fuel of AVGAS. That torpedo salvo at that moment sinks any WWII carrier to include USS MIDWAY.
Both INTREPID and LEXINGTON (CV-16) took torpedo hits and had to go back to Pearl Harbor.
Torpedo strikes on US carriers were rarely fatal by themselves and often survivable. The ones that were sunk by torpedoes took multiple hits on top of damage from other means (bombs or suicide planes) or were caught at the wrong time like WASP.
For British carriers, EAGLE took like four torpedoes so she sank (duh), I was under the impression that poor damage control killed ARK ROYAL (correct me if I am wrong). A single torpedo sent HMS INDOMITABLE to Virginia for a few months. COURAGEOUS was sunk by two torpedoes but she had a pretty light hull.